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see the assumptions. reigning in casters is off the table in this exercise. so why not give martials some high level craziness as well? all-caster parties is not a design issue but player choice. Again, I'm with you and would rather see the complete overhaul. But for now, put in the...

For the record so I can cut and paste in future threads on this, here's the arguments I hear against the mythic martials, Assumptions-- no changes to spellcasting/spellcasters, mythic martial will be a separate, new class this mythic martial will be no more versatile and powerful than the...

I'm talking about the "some people's game will be ruined by the addition of the mythic martial class and you may lose players" argument you've made. Assume: its an entirely new class it isn't going to be stronger or more versatile than the current Wizard class. all existing classes will still...

It certainly could be anyone, but there seems to be some fantasy genre convention that martials have temporal power. I forget which edition Basic? 1e? said something like Fighters are more likely to rule nations. Fighters had followers, etc. Why? I don't know given the power of...

To me this goes back to the breadth issue a bit. If the Wizard could only do AoE and ok single target and transport/movement spells then I wouldn't care if the Wizard helped trivialize the gap. He wouldn't be able to also trivialize combat with a Banish or Force spell or social with a...

I mean, people who don't see the problem shouldn't be the lead designer on creating the solution though right? I know (think) you are trying to help, but a much more charitable position would be: "I don't see the disparity and don't really get why this is needed, but it seems an important part...

Sure, you could model it that way. But it also doesn't have to be 120 ft of regular movement. It can be a standard action that includes the movement in abstraction. You attack anything within a 15 ft wide by 120 line, ending up next to the last target. It's not a move action and movement...

You aren't wrong and more focused archetypes would help you figure out how that high level martial would "solve" challenges and probably make defining abilities easier. That said, the current game does have a non martial class that just shoves all them together and lets the player pick. And...

I think it's a breadth issue equally. Imagine if Wizard -- each wizard can do mostly AoE damage spells and only ONE of the following 1) battle field control, 2) movement/travel, 3) divination, 4) charm/dominate, etc. Druid -- ok warrior, survival stuff and travel spells only, limited use...

That's more part of the fun options side then raw power but think it's still important. Conditions and movement denial, AoE, etc. should be part of their toolkit. And there should be fun options as well that speak to being a mythic warrior at high level instead of just attack hard. But agree...

Teleporting could be ok depending on certain background, but I don't see why they can't just move, jump, swing, smash objects, etc. and attack? No reason the attack action couldn't include a bunch of abstract movement. It's not really dimension door -- it's just narrative permission (and more...

To be fair not sure that many people do high level well including Pathfinder 2e which has the system to probably pull it off but some of the higher level AP books fall a little flat. Zeitgeist is a good one. The ending books feel really different than the beginning books. There are huge...

There is no reason martial abilities can't break the action economy. In fact, that would be a cool differentiator btw martial and caster. You spin and jump around like a devil and make one attack against every target within 30 feet, at the end you end up next to the last target you attack...

Again to the multiple conversations issue. What's your assumption -- spellcasters remain the same? Could be a solution here if tied to more than just more damage, higher Ac, etc. That's pretty boring and doesn't really give you much of the utility martials lack at higher level. If skills...

Yes, I particularly love that stance.

Yep. "I can choose a sonic thunderclap area attack at 15th level that can stun monsters and crumble walls? No way man, I real person couldn't do that" "This isn't a real person. You are a mythic martial with some kind of fantastic background." "But I want to play a regular guy. " "Sure...

Yep, and I see no issues with limiting the overtly supernatural stuff to say 7th/8th level and above so that you can play a "mundaney martial" game until 6th/7th level. Seems like the best of both worlds.

I agree with you and want a full overhaul of magic. That said, it isn't at all equivalent. Full overhaul of magic and casters is a huge endeavor that won't happen until 6e if at all, whereas adding a seperate mythic martial class in an optional spatbook seems like a much easier lift. I...

Yeah, unless D&D puts in Fate points or some such I think high level martials need to be "magical" in some way. This can be class magic items for the mundane he ro with gear archetype. Just like the old marvel FASERIP game did it for gadgeteers and suit wearers, you could have the menu of...

I mean this needs to be read in context. Most games are played at lower level. At lower level Fighters are fine. Also no data but it could also be that one of the main reasons most games are played at lower level is that the system breaks down at higher level due to caster power... It...