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Yes you have. Thus demonstrating that there is an expected causality between fictional things, and if you significantly deviate from it, it is obvious.

Perhaps, but some of them were suggested as possible contributors by the person who came up with the example. But why would the characters refrain from doing those things? Causally nothing bad should follow from thinking and observing, one would think, it is just the structure of the skill...

A man kicks a ball. The ball moves. There was no man, nor a ball, just text, but you might have imagined a man and a ball. And the causal relationship is pretty clear too.

According to everyone who wanted get rid of species ASIs that +2 was the difference between a perfectly playable character and unplayable trash, so obviously it is a huge difference!

Yes, I understand how this works. I am not saying that, except in a sense that the GM will put on the map things that are fun and appropriate too. But the things are predefined, just like in map and key, there just isn't a literal map. I am trying to get to why you think that the format of the...

Same way than in map and key, it is just written/mental instead of there being map. Like my prison escape didn't have a map, nor even written notes, the pertinent details were merely in my head. Now I don't know why this would make any sort of a difference, but as you apparently do, you can...

The fiction evolves causally due the actions of the characters. The mechanics merely represent this. This is different than the GM inventing more obstacles because the players overcome the first one so effectively and more successes are still needed to complete the challenge.

Yes, but it seemed that you needed help. So here is an alternative: instead of having map, the GM makes mental or written notes of the situations and then adjudicates the fiction based on that. Is that the sort of thing you were looking for?

The characters could observe the keep from afar, they might want to roll history to see whether they might know something that would reveal best direction of approach, they could roll perception to see the guards, and perhaps insight to assess their morale, dungeoneering to assess the structure...

I mean you can keep denying it all you want. Skill challenges force the fiction to conform to the rules instead of other way around. This lessens the impact of character actions and fictional positioning. I have several times explained how this occurs, and no one has refuted the actual logic...

But that is not what the rules actually do. Rules do not care about obstacles, they care about the number of successful checks. Thus if the players manage to overcome the obstacles presented in the fiction with few checks, new obstacles must be presented so that the check quota can be fulfilled...

Combat rules are structured rigidly to allow a tactical mini game. I would not want all of the game to work like this. Though of course the combat minigame has far more tactical depth than skill challenges, if combat rules were just "the side which first lands six hits wins" I doubt a lot of...

Given that you said you meant literal map and key, whole tread is rather weird, given that most roleplaying do not involve such. Instead it just involves situations that are described, rather than presented on a map.

What is "wrong" is that it is the same amount regardless of what the characters do. This trivialises the fictional position and choices the players make. Now if you don't care about those things mattering, then it obviously is perfectly fine. I can't. Because I have preset obstacles and...

It is not "hidden" it is just unknown to all participants, as we do not yet know what sort of actions the characters might take and how the fictional position might develop. And this is important, as engaging with the fictional positioning is the point. Here players actually have far more...

It is very different. See my prison escape example. In skill challenge the players have less input, as no matter what they do, they have to roll the predetermined amount of successes and the GM keeps framing obstacles until they do that or fail enough. Only in the sense that it lays bare the...

Ok. Then I definitely do not think "map and key" is the default. Perhaps @Micah Sweet understood it more broadly as well? So you then agree with me that in skill challenges no solution is better than other and what the players do do not matter? So it is just a mechanical framework to prompt...

It is from the DMG1. The challenges have set of primary skills, and there is no indication that the GM should prevent the players from using those, thus the implication is such that they should frame fiction so that they can always be used. How it is different? Are you seriously asking this...

But that's what skill challenge rules say, They have set of skills you can use and then set of secondary skills that might face higher DC. It even says: "Characters must make a check on their turn using one of the identified primary skills (usually with a moderate DC) or they must use a...

Thank you for the explanation and example. This seems good to me; that the different approaches produce different outcomes and that there is not a set number of checks for the conflict but instead an action to resolve makes it far better than the skill challenges to me. (I also downloaded your...