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Really? You think that the notion of simulation doesn't include any idea that how a result was determined should be part of a simulation? What links do I need to provide when that's the basic definition of the word? The basic definition of simulation is: Yes, I do realize that there are...

Ok, yes, I know I'm being annoying. But, I'm keeping my idiocy confined to one thread, I'm not spreading it anywhere and it's just SOOOOO cathartic to get all bent out of shape and argumentative about something that really, really doesn't matter because if I start to talk about the stuff that...

Sorry, but, I don't find, "Make anything up after the fact" to be a particularly useful definition of simulation. 🤷

Again, though, it's not 100% certainty we're looking for. That's the red herring you guys have added to the conversation. That any definition of sim that doesn't include 100% certainty isn't sim. I've never, ever argued that. I've been really, really clear that I am not arguing that. Sim...

Oh, wait a minute. I was told in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that the d20 ONLY represents skill. No luck at all. So, now, which is it?

Yes, absolutely. So, now we KNOW why you failed. If you roll higher than 9, you straight up failed because you were not skilled enough. If you roll 4-9, you failed because it was dark. If you roll 3 or less, you succeeded because of your skill despite the dark. That's what a sim system...

Where does the information come from though? Where does the information about how you missed come from? You don't know that you missed until the after all the balls stop moving? By your way of doing things, you're saying that it would be impossible to narrate your shot in real time. Which...

Ok, you want dueling quotes? Fair enough. Page 10 2024 PHB: Note, at no point is the d20 roll actually defined. At no point does the D20 test determine HOW it succeeded or failed. Nothing in the rules suggests that it does. It SPECIFIES that it only produces the results. The rules...

But it's still missing the point. We KNOW what the character's skill is. So, any roll below that skill succeeds because of skill. The modifiers don't really change that. If you succeed because of a +2 to skill but rolled 2 above your base skill, the system is telling you that you succeeded...

So every single cue you use is absolutely true? Every single table you play on is brand new, virgin felt that has never been played on before? Every single bumper on the table is brand new? You've never, ever played on a table that wasn't 100% pristine? Saying that you missed is always down...

Really? The only reason you missed the shot is because you didn't hit the cue right? There is no other possible explanation? But, again, the mechanics in D&D DON'T TELL YOU THAT. All they tell you is that you missed the shot. They are completely silent as to why you missed the shot. They...

I'm really, really tired of arguing with people about mechanics of games they obviously don't play. Reread the quoted section above from the GURPS rules. They don't actually say what you think they say. But, hey, what do I know? I've only played GURPS off and on for the past thirty years or...

Wow. Just how much straw are you piling on there. What mechanics are you referring to? Can you give me an example of a mechanic like that? See, unlike @AlViking, I've actually provided several clear examples of how diegetic mechanics actually work. He has yet to provide a single example of...

I think this is an excellent point. How can something be diegetic in the game world if time runs backward? If the justification occurs only AFTER the result is known?

So, if I'm understanding this right, then the d20 roll in a skill test in 5e D&D ONLY represents skill. Correct? It represents NOTHING else. Only skill. So, the crumbling cliff face is off the table then because that's not a failure of skill. That's luck. The broken rope is off the table...

You are adding the word "complete" here to create an argument I am not making. The system alone produce ANY information that then guides the narration which assures it makes diegetic sense. The DM makes stuff up after the fact is the opposite of diegetic. A mechanic that only works by...

Ahh, we're back to everything is simulation. I mean if asking the DM, outside of the game, a series of questions to create content for what you are doing, and that counts as simulation, well.... I'm thinking most people would balk at that idea. The DM in a D&D game has no idea what is behind a...

Agreed. So what does the die roll represent? It cannot represent skill or ability because those are already represented. Rules of the game say that sources cannot stack. So you cannot count ability or skill twice. So what does the die represent if it's not everything other than ability and...

You keep cutting stuff off. Because you're ignoring the biggest part of that check. The die roll. After all, I can overcome the DC without any sklll at all. Ropes and pitons must be used in all climbs? That's a new rule. I wasn't aware of that one. But, a die roll is required every single...

Let me try this from a different direction. In Ironsworn (sorry to bring this up again, but, it fits my example well and ... well... I just really like the system :D) there is a mechanic called Ask the Oracle. What happens is when you get a result but you are unsure exactly how that result was...