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I'm not sure I am following you. I posted an example of play that was similar to what happened in a game I played in a few sessions back. https://www.enworld.org/threads/gm-fiat-an-illustration.712258/post-9613852 Whenever I state 'that's a conflict' just replace rolling the dice with me...

Anyway I gave the previous example because there are methods where you establish facts after a roll (what I call generative resolution. I think me and @pemerton talked about it 5 or 6 months ago). It probably ended with me flaming out about it because I hate it so much. BUT it does actually...

Ah wait there might be some confusion. So if I'm using dice. Whether the girlfriend forgives him would probably never actually be a conflict, me and my friends might screw up if we're not on the ball but it's probably illegitimate. The phrase 'do you forgive me would probably be said after a...

Direct fiat is a more raw form of expression whilst fortune offers curveballs. Yes I think the opportunity is lost if dice are involved but that doesn't mean there aren't other avenues for expression. Although I'm not sure I'd phrase it as opportunity because that suggests I'd change all systems...

Well this is personal preference and I'm speaking in broad strokes. It's the most enjoyable way to make a statement about the human condition. That being said, there are a whole load of ways to slice up the pie where system can interject, so I'm not saying all fiat all the time. And I'm...

Wait a moment let me back up. I'm trying to describe why not using dice is desirable but that's an aesthetic preference thing. Use dice, don't use dice. My broader point is that not using dice doesn't tell us anything about whether this is GM story time or not. Using dice in a consequential way...

Well the big difference is that if the GM has a plot planned out then he's not really reincorporating what the player says. He's not taking it into consideration because he already knows the outcome. If the GM doesn't have a plot planned out, then he is listening to what the players are saying...

It's not about whether the GM is telling a story. Thinking about it in terms of story control is fundamentally misunderstanding it. Let me provide a more extreme example to illustrate my point. In a game I was playing recently (as GM) one of the PC's really wanted his lover to accept what he...

My apologies. I was misinterpreting something you said earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure you can. Your plan might not work because the GM thinks it's a dumb idea is the core gameplay loop and that's always going to have the potential for hurt feelings no matter how much you dress it up. I don't mean this in a disparaging way either. Pedantic and Micah play so that...

Yeah that's a good example. Where we differ is that I see fiat as the reason to play an RPG, Or put another way, I want people to have to make judgements about fictional positioning without recourse to system guaranteed position (reliable currency for the theory heads out there) That being...

It's a really good question and I like reading about different approaches. If I'm playing Sorcerer I tend to go by the general rule that fictional positioning can't override the conflict resolution mechanics except in extremis. Is this actually a conflict or a lost cause. If it's any way a...

Well when it's made up, how and the reasons/criteria/principles matter. To use my example from several posts back. If the GM creates a competent hunter at the start of the scenario. Then the hunter is tracking the players and the GM uses what they know about the hunter and how the alarm is...

@Manbearcat I think I agree but we'll see. If fiat is used to force outcomes based on stuff like, what the GM wants to happen, to keep the plot moving, to provide a challenge. Then I agree that that specific approach isn't conducive to challenge based play. The correct attitude would seem to...

Well different procedures lead to different types of player contributions but I'm not sure what that has to do with fiat. Fiat just means you have authority over some fictional thing we're talking about. To create a simple version of the rules above: If you have the time and safety to set...

I'll give it a try but a lot of what I'm going to talk about is upstream of the thread topic so we don't get to social mechanics until much later, if at all because it might become obvious where the differences lie, I don't know. Also I wish I had more PG examples but unfortunately I'm pulling...

There is some kind of fundamental difference in how we parse fiction. If not in general exegetic terms then certainly as it applies to rpg's. It's not that I don't have the problems you, Luke Crane and Andre have, it's that I can't even conceive of how you get those problems. So I suspect it...

I've come up with a jargon version of trying to explain this. People point to differences between physical and mental stuff and tend to be ok with physical resolution and not with mental. I think that's because the division of authorities they use tends to be different (maybe, depends on...

I keep thinking of ways to try and explain my position and I've come up with an extreme one that kind of hits the nail on the head. I don't have in character arguments. There are conflicts of interest but not arguments. We're obviously using the resolution systems to determine fundamentally...

I was latching onto the command thing rather than the princess is irritated thing. If we were playing together I would have gone meta straight away to get clarification, in fact if we were using a basic conflict resolution system with dice (say Sorcerer), I'd do the same thing. I think this may...