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I’m not sceptical that it happened. Just surprised because the inertia of trad play and especially D&D play tends to override what a system is doing. Although. This could very well be an artefact of the play culture I grew up with (White Wolf). I’m surprised (although less so) when people find...

To be fair, you’re right. I apologise. I find the analogy apt but my framing was condescending.

To swipe from @pemerton I think doing a cross word puzzle and reading a book of fiction exist on a continuum. They both happen on a page and involve words. I mean you can read cross word puzzles right? and the words don’t necessarily refer to anything that exists? That’s the same as fiction...

That’s fascinating. I know a lot of people talk about 4E as Narrativist (I know Ron does) but I never believed it could actually change the nature of play like that.

Yeah you got it. Although it's hard to discuss in detail without examining specific resolution systems and how they're applied.

I’m getting at something a bit more fundamental but I probably shouldn’t have even bothered trying to address it. The only reason I attempted to do so was because @innerdude was talking about agency in trad games and not only do I fundamentally disagree with his take, I think it’s socially and...

I'm really at bad writing because this was my point, I mostly agree with everything you've said. (although more incoming later)

This fits my experience as well. When you genuinely get questions you want to answer and like the system (not the mechanics, the system), play becomes absolutely awesome. There’s nothing like it.

You’re probably better off asking specific people for their takes rather than seeing them as representatives of a theory. As you pointed out, people have genuinely different views. For instance, I do consider Critical Roll as Narrativist play (at a rough estimate about half of all role-players...

My broader point was really about how relationships end up being upstream of mechanics. So no, I don’t think the principles and move list do anything. Fictional positioning can only be as important as the groups choreography allows. Although I think a lot of people/groups have issues with...

Depending on how connected the intent and task are, I’m ok with the Burning Wheel. I mean I have preferences but I was getting at something a bit different, and my latest rant seems like it’s attacking BW but it’s more about how the IIEE theory gets used. Also, ‘the gift’ is so awesome that...

I made a bit of a hash of that last post. I’ll try and explain more thoroughly but it’s a hard subject and to write diplomatically would take too long. So I’m going to have to attack a huge amount of Narrativist play. Hidden backstory is stuff given fictional positioning that the players aren’t...

I don’t think I’d use a resolution system that prioritised intent in that way. The only games I can think of off the top of my head that do it are The Shadow of Yesterday and The Burning Wheel (both debatably). The issue is that the intent tends to drown out the immediate diegetic conflict and...

I mean it might be absurd but it’s how I play and I wouldn’t want to play any other way. Also I don’t get the whole thing about the GM being able to do anything. I wrote down the assassin kills the princess and so I’m not free to change that. Or in the case where the assassin is there...

I’ll walk you though how to get from critical roll to Narrativist play. (or how I would do it at least) Constrain the situation. What I mean by this, is the GM should create a cast of NPC’s and relationships between them and the player characters. Then the GM and the players have got to be...

It depends on the game right. I’m pretty sure in the game I was using for the original example, you’re just allowed to kill off NPC’s if another NPC is motivated to kill them. That doesn’t necessarily get to the point of whether it’s satisfying or not. Which to me is a bit of an open question...

Well to answer you and @zakael19. Let’s say in the previously discussed scenario, I’ve created this assassin and he wants to kill the princess and I’ve decided he’ll do it on Tuesday night, while she sleeps. Are you suggesting I don’t prep or I change the prep in response to what the player is...

I meant ambivalent in the sense that they have mixed feelings. Not that they’re disinterested. I mean your point still kind of stands because I don’t frame scenes in such a way as to speak to the characters thematic stakes and in fact would find doing so anathema. I think about what the NPC’s...

To break it down a bit further. A few things often get conflated. What I want from a system What my character wants What I want for the fiction (as an audience member) Diegetic conflict resolution Rolling for story control I’ve done this kind of reversal before to show my point but I’ll...

I would be really wary of conceptualising it as a continuum. I think me and innerdude are coming from really different places about how rpgs should operate, the creative relationship, how a story is formed, all of that.