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Point taken. It's possible my steel-manning of trad play actually borders on the disingenuous.

I think we use the text very differently. The way I MC, you can absolutely end up with a big happy family. Most of the threats aren't 'necessarily' threats to you although you do start off with all the NPC's not being loyal to you. In the sense that there isn't an authentic human connection but...

Yeah I think I'm on board with you. The OC player is non-responsive to the fiction in the same way that a trad GM is. I'm also with you on personality mechanics, I'm neutral on whether they are good or bad, it depends on how they're used and in what context. What I do think is that: The GM...

I made a post up-thread that deals with the same concerns with an example. https://www.enworld.org/threads/gm-fiat-an-illustration.712258/post-9636508 In that post there is a question the player is interested in 'will Midnight ever face her moral culpability?' It gets answered by the player...

Here's where I'm trying to carve up the lines as cleanly as I can. Is my Apocalypse World play an example of neo-trad/oc play, by this definition? I would say 'no' because I haven't committed to an outcome, made it my goal as a player, I'm just being responsive to the fiction, letting the...

Because the player chose it as an artistic decision. In that sense it isn't really unwelcome and the truly unwelcome would be not being able to choose.

Well if the player would prefer not to break their code but the demands of inspiration brought about by the fiction force them to for authenticities sake.

Stuff happens in the fiction and maybe it inspires the player to have their character break their code.

This is my feeling as well. In game about honor for instance, you can't have an honor roll, you need to leave that part to player fiat.

It was this post https://www.enworld.org/threads/gm-fiat-an-illustration.712258/post-9636508 I give an example of what I mean by 'play to find out'. The player makes a decision to significantly alter the characters priorities based on what's occurring in the fiction. Which seems to conflict...

Would you say that in my play example given above, the player is just making it up?

Yeah but is the goal of the player the same as the character? To tie this into what @FrogReaver said. So I'm playing Apocalypse World. One of the things I'm interested in seeing is if Midnight will ever actually face her own mortal culpability for the things she's done. That's not a goal of...

I address this in my reply to Crimson. there's a difference between the player goal and the character goal.

How does the GM play a character then? The GM has to prep a character and give them priorities. It's in the same way that a player is accountable to their character. When I'm playing a character I can't just have them do anything, my understanding of the fictional positioning provides a constraint.

I know you like it but I think Blades is a truly terrible game so I can't refer to it for purpose of illustration. We do have some common ground on the issue that we've discussed before, so I'll break down my thought process. Yeah I think internalizing character goals as your own is a very...

I honestly still don't get it. If you're into challenge based play I can see the need for a 'win/goal' state to make the process functional. In Narrativism there's nothing to 'win' and so the whole game paradigm seems as if it leads to confusion. EDIT: What is it people are trying to win?

If the point of play is to see the interaction between the PC and the GM's prep, then the GM must have solid prep that they adhere to, otherwise play is impossible. If the point of play is to have the GM create exciting or thematic problems in the moment, then the GM having prep isn't really a...

4 is kind of interesting. Knowing more about the GM decision process should give the player greater control if they 'are' going for an outcome because it should give them a lever to manipulate. I don't think it does though, or very rarely. It's more like a promise of agency than actual currency...

You and your group should play Inspectres. Or at least give it a try. It has a huge amount in common with Blades (to the extent you might raise an eyebrow) except is has mechanics that bind the GM to a mechanical decision they made earlier. It's one of the early examples of a Narrativist game...

Your thoughts on gamism are great and I get where you're coming from. And yeah I agree, the game state split is where it turns into two separate hobbies that use very similar same tools.