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If I've given that impression (or stated that), then I was mistaken. If folks like to play D&D on a purely tactical level (to the point where they don't name their characters, even), then there's nothing wrong with that. I would point them in direction of Warhammer Fantasy Battle or...

Here are some links, Henry. First, let's not forget that Burning Wheel was nominated for an ENnie for Best Rules!!: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16015.0 This seems to talk about fighting in the game; http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16006.0 This talks a bit...

Sure, I'm with you on that one. I think we have different ideas about what Rule 1 is, then (perhaps because you just assumed I agreed with your version. :) ) For me, Rule 1 is not "extrapolate rules if we didn't specifically mention them", but rather "get rid of our rules and put your own in...

I did and do know about the Take 10 rule, but I hadn't thought of it as analogous to Let It Ride. Once it was brought to my attention, I admitted that I hadn't thought of Take 10 in such a light and there might be something to that. This doesn't reflect my unfamiliarity with the rules, but...

Fair enough. I better understand your objection now, since you're suggesting that Forge proponents are attributing the commercial success of non-Forge products to the Forge. ;)

Sure, it's the Rule that says you should make up your own rules if you don't like the ones in the book. :) That always makes me ask, though: if I have to make up the rules that I need to enjoy your game, then why did I need you in the first place? Why didn't you get it right? Great idea, but...

Right, because commercial success is the sole indicator of a product's worth. The games that have made the most money are obviously the best games, because the mere fact that lots of people like something is the surest indicator of its merits. What game has the best rules? Whichever one made...

One more post. ;) Can we at least settle on whether you think Let It Ride is a rule or not?

No, no, it absolutely does count! I hadn't thought of that example. That's pretty close to my conception of Let It Ride. Maybe there's some life left in old D&D. I stand corrected. :) I'm off to bed, but Luke seems to be back on the thread. Sorry if I hurt BW more than I helped, Luke! :p

Does it include similar language to the Burning Wheel text I quoted? Does it expressly forbid a DM from calling for rolls from players? Does it suggest that DMs might be cheating if they call for rolls when they shouldn't? Where are the rules in D&D for relentless personal training? Can you...

D&D might support that style, but not in the rules. Please quote the relevant sections of the D&D rules that explicitly identify the Let It Ride style of play. Taking 10/20 is not the same as Let It Ride. It tells players that they might not have to roll for a particular action, but where...

Let's not change our definitions so quickly! You stated that Burning Wheel didn't include rules about Let It Ride and I showed you that the text clearly identified Let It Ride as a rule. What else are rules except ways of enforcing a particular type of play? Without rules, we'd all be playing...

So in the aftermath of the DMG II, D&D is now a Forge game? :p I don't own that book, so perhaps you could quote some of the relevant passages for me?

I'm extremely familiar with the rules of D&D. Don't confuse my ideas about D&D's shortcomings with unfamiliarity with the RAW. :)

Wait, I thought you hadn't actually read Burning Wheel? Are you sure you're in possession of most (or even any) facts about Burning Wheel before you make judgments on them? Then are we talking about D&D as a Warhammer Fantasy Battle proxy? I wholeheartedly agree that comparisons about D&D and...

Fortunately, perceptions of pretension are also subjective value judgments. ;) But why aren't we discussing the other mechanical aspects of Burning Wheel vs. D&D that Luke alluded to? I'm sure we're all familiar with both the rules of Burning Wheel and D&D and are therefore in a good position...

I think every game publisher is allowed a little leeway for the sake of marketing? :)

I worry that you're oversimplifying for the sake of making your point. How many players do you know who sit down at the gaming table and say: "My goals for this game are tactical combat simulation." It's logically possible for such a player to exist, but it's extremely unrealistic and...

If you use Let It Ride in your D&D game, that's great. One of the criticisms of D&D, however, might be that it doesn't explicitly include such a rule. I'm a good friend of Luke's and it's odd to hear it suggested that he's pretentious. He's very enthusiastic about his game and he (rightfully...

Fair enough, but that's arguably not a roleplaying goal or a character goal. I'm not sure what Luke would make of that, but I don't think it counts, somehow. ;)