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Yeah, I've never been a fan of people just deciding to "share smoke" with you. In principal, I'd rather have people toking than drinking (largely because I've spent some significant amount of my life around people who did both and I have pretty pronounced opinions about which I'd rather be...

Sure. Note my line about "want to weigh in"? There are absolutely players who want the GM to do all this, and that's their choice. (Though, note my focus on "as a group"; the fact one player doesn't want to be involved in the discussion doesn't mean the rest are obligated to not want in...

I don't think Battlesuit was the one I'm thinking of because I doubt I own it, but I bought a lot of wargames (especially microgames) back in the day, and it could have been parallel development.

Yeah. As I note, I won't speak of AD&D or the Basic offshoot (as I never played or GMed them), but OD&D was heavily lacking in subsystems outside of combat, and what was there was pretty ad-hoc in apparent design. The early stuff was all "roll a D6 and get X", then the thief comes along and...

Read again. I said he was badmouthing players as a set. I didn't say anything about how he was responding to my position, nor do I care other than to the degree someone misrepresents me. I'll make my position extremely clear here just to avoid any further misunderstanding: I have no reason to...

I think when looking back over the whole run of the character I can't support "awful", but there are definitely problems with them as they were written. I don't think they're minion-only killers, but there's no question that once you hit a boss you're contributing less than other people unless...

As he said, its also a common perception of Hero, and while Hero has some initial engagement needed (learning to count Normal dice and properly engagement with the Speed chart) as he says most of any complexity is upfront in character gen (and really only when powers are involved).

Taking it seriously as proper design is not required to use it as a rotating point for skilled play. Its not like being ad-hoc in design choice has been a rarity throughout most of D&D's history.

I mean, honestly, this seems an odd argument. If you consider deriving your mechanics and concepts from other games immoral, that probably declares most of the RPG market immoral; very few just lept fully formed from their designers heads without some elements coming from prior art, and most of...

"Light on" does not mean "nonexistant" last time I looked.

Yeah, back in the day when Steve Perrin looked at an obviously RQ derived game and said it seems oddly familiar, my response was "Well, it pays to steal from the best" and he just grinned.

Well, that's largely because the early Gygaxian D&D was pretty light on mechanics, especially outside of combat, in general.

It can be even more procounced with a two-gun user because the reload times are so awful; even with talents its hard to get it better than three shots in two rounds.

Of course you are. You seem to think even collectively, the typical player group is less trustworthy to make house rules decisions than a GM is. If you don't think that's badmouthing them, you've got a very privledged positon. I think your approach infantalizes the players, and yeah, I don't...

The difference is I don't have to badmouth most of the player populace to defend mine.

I saw a lot of hell sent downrange via Chain Lightning by our chronic sorcerer player. Its one of the reasons I tend to roll my eyes when I hit the "spellcasters are only there to help the fighters" thing drop yet again.

There are a few arcane spells that can be really punchy at their levels on a single target basis, but they aren't going to do those round after round. Like I said, I had some serious cleanup on a few occasions, but I also spent a lot of time going "You know, I'd have contributed to this fight...

And there's still that crowd control thing. A mage can end up putting more damage downrange than any fighter ever will; they just end up putting it in multiple targets usually (the usually is important, though). Gunslingers are weird to play (my last PF2e character was one). They can be very...

If your idea of "taking out half the opposition" is "clean up crew", I'd have to say that's a sign of "If I'm not the primary actor in taking down the big bad I'm nerfed" mentality.

I'm not the one saying that using player design can't work because they're selfish.