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Level limits handle this quite nicely.

I wanted to like this show, but it just doesn't know what it wants to be. It has Romeo and Juliet, Othello, wookies, even has Han Solo as the main character. Too many cliches for me to mention in one post. I foresee another one season wonder.

Fighter Cleric Wizard

Or, we could have a core paladin that was fine for 30 something years, and those that want a paladin to not be a paladin but something else and still keep their kewl powerz no matter what can have it in an optional module.

But the police officer has priviliges that a civilian doesn't have and WILL NEVER have. Much like a fighter can't project a protection from evil circle. These powers are stripped by they who grant them. In one case, by the people, in the other, by a deity. I fail to see the difference.

Sure, let me know when you find one, because a paladin losing his powers for being decidedly unpaladin-like ain't it.

But a citizen wouldn't lose privileges that a police officer would. Like the ability to carry a firearm in places civilians can't, the ability to arrest people, etc. With great power comes great responsibility. Right, that could never happen, EVER...

But it is. If a policeman walks down the street and starts murdering people, he will be stripped of his powers and is no longer a policeman. The only difference is society strips his powers, not his deity.

And thank you for adding such succinct points to the conversation.

But a fighter does lose any abilities granted by a diety, just like a paladin. And the dm is not "stepping in." The dm is merely playing the part of npcs just as he's always done. Insult the innkeeper's daughter, and you're liable to lose your inn privileges and be sleeping in the street...

The 2nd edition bard was quite powerful. One caster level behind a magic user and a few less spells per level in exchange for using any weapon and armor up to chain mail. That said: Count me as one wanting a real bard instead of a mage/thief multiclass, please.

And this bewilders me. A world full of monsters should be dangerous. If my pc is never in danger unless the dm queues the soundtrack for a boss fight, then what are all the other encounters even there for? All those other encounters are time wasted imo.

I beg to differ. It is a class and is listed as such. It has all the abilities of a druid, most of the spells, no limit to hit points, bardic music, , and the fighting and thieving abilities of its previous classes.

So do I, but only one deserves the name "paladin." Call the others holy warriors or some such.

The first edition bard says hi. Then he kills the 4e bard and takes his stuff.

All of them.

And I'd be less likely to play if the possibility DIDN'T exist. The problem is not low hit points. It's the length of combat. Ideally, getting one shotted should keep you out of action 10-15 minutes. Which is also how long creating a new character should take.

Hit point bloat needs to go away. Across the board. I want the numbers to be as low as possible, especially hit points.

I look at it more like someone got stupid and decided to arm wrestle a wraith and got what they deserve. There's nothing wrong with old school level drain, other than, as you say, the book keeping. 3e fixed that nicely with the negative level mechanic, though they made it way too easily fixed...