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Pacing and transparency of stakes.

If you're saying that this is a completely subjective taste thing on your part, then fine. But you seem to be making a broader point? It's about whether 'failing to climb the wall', 'failing to spot the guards', or 'failing to be stealthy' turns into 'and therefore failing the whole...

'Determinate structure', look at Mr Fancy Pants over here ;) I like that term, I imagine I will use it.

So you're approaching non-SC skill checks the same way as you approach SC skill checks then? What it adds in principle is a transparent structure to the chain of actions, clarifying at what point overall success (or overall failure) is achieved. The advantage of this over having the GM simply...

But don't you do this in regular play all the time? You try to persuade the sweet old lady even though intimidate is your higher score? You try to intimidate the orc warlord even though the paladin nearby has a better intimidate check?

But this is you choosing to adopt a shallower, degenerate mode of play in response to the added structure. Nothing about SCs forces you to not consider these other factors. 'Doctor it hurts when I hit myself'.

No it doesn't? Unless what you really mean here is 'the GM's exclusive discretion over the fiction'. What's the point of any dice rolls when the GM can fudge? What's the point of any non-SC skill rolls when the GM isn't obliged to honour any particular result? These are fundamental questions...

Yeah. 'I try to impress the zookeeper by telling him some animal facts I learned from my Hunt skill' 'I try to sneak up to the guards using my Hunt skill to anticipate broken twigs and dry leaves' 'I try to seduce the princess by showing her the pelts of the many beasts I hunted with my Hunt...

I guess there SCs still fulfil the same role as the rest of the rules, which is to create a structure that aids play even if at times it may be discarded or amended.

I threw my modem away years ago. Whenever I tried to use it to go online it made a funny noise.

Other people have done the opposite, which is why I posted it. Well, the Oberoni fallacy is about fixing what's broken. Are you saying that DMs in D&D don't (or aren't allowed) to grant automatic successes, deny ridiculous action declarations, or skip over the last bits of a combat sequence...

I thought we weren't supposed to talk about politics?

I'm not super clear how the SC tangent really relates to the OP, but: I don't understand how skill challenges, uniquely among all the mechanics of D&D, are apparently not open to GM discretion and judgement. GMs apparently have infinite power to ignore the dice, deceive the players, and negate...

It occurs to me that a parallel situation might be 'I roleplayed out that conversation so well, why is the GM still making me roll a Diplomacy check?'. Either engage the mechanics or do not. It's not the game's fault if you choose a resolution method you didn't want.

I agree with this. Skill challenges and similar mechanics are just a way of applying slightly more structure to regular play in order to make a particular long-form sequence more transparent and gameable. Without such a structure, these sequences are ultimatelly resolved by the GM, who after a...

I think there is an excluded middle here between 'the player isn't invested in any particular outcome for his character' and 'the player will do anything to win the roll, no matter how degenerate or hollow'. When I play D&D sure I try to use my best abilities but I also try to resolve things how...

Thanks. I don't have a detailed example but I can share the very brief one from the book. Obviously it's missing the context of the chapter but you can (if you wish) download a free rules summary from DTRPG. I guess a key bit of context is that when you win a conflict you can either gain a...

What examples were you thinking of? Because this isn't my experience.

I don't think this characterisation of narrativist games as relying on players being uninterested in a particular outcome is correct. I think in fact many narrativist games rely on players pushing for their character's agenda.

I think that skill challenges were a noble failure. Plenty of games on the storygame side have some means of chaining together individual skill rolls into a larger conflict resolution mechanism. In D&D typically this could only be choreographed through the GM, here in theory is a way of...