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Wow. Sorry but a Critical Hit cannot Miss by definition. A Critical Hit is a type of a Attack Result of which there are only two - Hit and Miss. A Critical Hit is of the type "Hit." You can have a potential Critical Hit turn out to be a Miss, but once you "score a critical hit" you have...

I see where you are coming from and I agree that your argument is every bit as good as mine.

Well, it's not only leaving out the word, "can." The whole rule is spelled out the same way as the normal rule for Critical Hit, but with a different mechanic and a different way to get to the result. That's the core of it, really. It's hard to imagine that this new rule (Holy Ardor) does not...

Before this goes any further, let me explain my current goal is this debate. It is not to convince my opponents I am right, not to declare they are flat out wrong. It may appear that way, but all I really want is for them to say, "Yes, I can see where you are coming from and that is a...

No, Holy Ardor is BOTH attack rolls and therefore not like OeE which is pick one of the two attack rolls. WUT!?! Making and using the result of BOTH attack rolls is not thw same as making an attak roll. Right - doubles on a pair of attack rolls is not the same as an attack roll. No, it is...

Actually, you can only get to the precision "rule" if you have followed the path to the Critical Hit rule. That path start with "an attack roll." Holy Ardor sort of jumps pat all that and straight to a result of Critical Hit based upon not "an attack roll" but upon rolling doubles on two...

Huh? I did not miss that, and agree, though it is no relevant to Holy Ardor. Unfortunately, your logic also means you cannot possible get a automatic hit, because that modifies the results of comparing the attack roll to the target's defense. There is no reason why a new rule (an exception)...

Ah, but, when scrutinized, those rules don't support your argument. Focusing only the relevant steps: 3. Make an Attack Roll. (Whoops - Holy Ardor is not "an Attack Roll" - it is TWO Attack Rolls and, unlike Oath of Enmity, not using just one of them (which would be "an Attack Roll"), but...

Okay. Doubles is not an attack roll. It is comparing two attack rolls and, in addition to picking one and then applying the normal Hit/Automatic HIt/Critical Hit rules to that roll, we are told to "score a critical hit " if the doubles are not double ones. It's the fact that it is not an...

Well, I maintain the rules has been explicitly replaced by Holy Ardor as shown by the language used. I have shown this to be the case in many different ways, and your unwillingness to see that does not change the validity of my logic one bit. Oath of Enmity crits normally because, though it...

Okay, seems kind of pointless, but I'll play. First, I'd eliminate Precision all together. I'd re-write Critical to be: If you roll a 20 (or a lower number as granted by a feature or power) on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high...

But, of course, I maintain the other requirements have indeed been overridden. Well, I disagree and maintain that the new mechanic plus the new rule for it stand on their own as complete. That's the most straightforward way to read it.

As written, yes they should, but, since they do not present a new mechanic (as Holy Ardor does), it is reasonable to assume that they meant to make this work like all similar powers that simply change the 20 needed for a critical hit to be 19 or 20.

I am so glad you posted this, for this is your key mistake. The rules say if you do A, you score a critical hit if you also do B. Another rule comes along and says Whenever you do C, you score a critical hit if you also do D. That other rule just changed what you need to score a critical hit...

Yep, exactly.

1. Grouping it back into the lines above we get: If you roll a 20 (or a feature or power designated number other than 20) on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to...

Fair point. So what does Precision really say? Let's parse it: Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit). Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you...

1. With Holy Ardor you roll two attacks rolls and pick the highest one per Oath of Enmity. At that point, all the normal rules apply and you have your attack roll (the higher one) that is used for the "Hit" and "Critical Hit" rules. Then Holy Ardor adds in a new wrinkle - check the result of...

Since my fundamental argument is around a new mechanic (doubles) plus a rule telling you how that works (score a critical hit), and the counter primarily says the other rules on critical hits must still apply (must hit first), what if we had the following (I generally don't like "what if," but I...

The real reason that the lack of the word "can" (or any other word modifying "score a critical hit") is so important comes from the language in the Critical Hit rule itself: "...you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense." It's hard for me to...