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If I had a character who wanted to use the "actually knows but voices tell her not to say" explanation, I would insist that they obey the dice. So if they failed a lethal intelligence check (to identify cyanide or whatever), I would expect their character does what the voices say even unto...

If you re-read my statement you will note that I didn't say his exercise met the RAW (or RAI!) description of intelligence. All I said is that his exercise accounted for the basic game mechanics of a low int. You're not quoting game mechanics, here, you're quoting the (arguably more important)...

I don't necessarily agree with the exercise here, but the bold part seems wrong. And not just wrong, but essentially the opposite of what's happening. Elfcrusher is trying to come up with character concepts for Int 5 that take into consideration the game's basic mechanics and nothing else...

Best of luck, man! I hope the endgame is fun for all involved.

Yeah, agreed. I offered a few ideas of alternate systems to try out. I guess every time it comes up it just surprises me even more than the last example.

This is the thing that keeps stumping me about your situation, Celtavian... Your players do everything they can to squeeze out every cheesy combo and bonus they can find, and yet they will get bent out of shape if you give them a taste of that back? That seems like a really messed up, lopsided...

I don't think it's really a mystery that the monsters are balanced assuming no magic items. That's been pretty widely known and publicized, hasn't it?

I think they can both be fun. Building a concept first can sometimes be a little tricky if you fail to execute it as imagined... Your literary figure ends up flopping. Building from the stats up can also mean that you "discover" the character organically, going in directions you would not have...

You're massively misrepresenting Hemlock here. He is talking about weird edge case monsters, not just masses of low CR monsters in general. And in a different thread (the one about stats) he's arguing in favor of using really terrible stat sets alongside really good ones, and saying that's no...

This explains everything. Some stat configurations *don't really work* for some character concepts. But they'll still work for others. By choosing everything first, you create expectations. You end up with a (maybe subconscious) "floor" of acceptable stats. Any amount of high stats will be...

Interesting interpretation. I've also seen people argue that the 3-20 range shouldn't really be used to represent human ability but rather something like... viable human ability for an adventurer. So Int 3 is the dumbest an adventurer could reasonably be. This makes some sense when you do...

Fun story! I forget what it was supposed to prove. That stats aren't terribly important, especially compared to player choices? Sure, I'm already convinced of that of course, but this satisfies my confirmation bias nicely at the very least. Sounds like an entertaining couple of sessions. A...

It's not a derail, it's a discussion. :) But... If 8 is Mongo... What's 10? Give me another example from fiction, please. And for fun, what's 9 and 11? I suspect your example of 10 will mean you're leaving little room for nuance.

There is a long thread about what 5 Int means, so I'd say your assertion here is hardly universal. But for the record: I think claiming Mongo is 8 Int, considering 8 is just one step below decidedly average, is completely absurd. Stats below 8 are not nearly as catastrophic as you're claiming.

For what it's worth, *I'm* asking. Sounds like an interesting story. But it wouldn't really be to prove any kind of point, as I don't specifically disagree with you here, and I don't hate the CaW/CaS distinction. I'm just curious.

I haven't read the feat in question but it sounds like this may be addressed by Close Quarters Combat, a UA feat. I'm skeptical about this feat, though, since it sounds like it grants an accuracy boost as well. Edit: looked it up online. It's a new fighting style, which makes more sense. No...

I think we can infer from the extensive use of other concentration spells that it would have made a significant difference. I'm not saying they would have died or anything, but I think it would have been noticeable. My experience with 4e optimization (using lots of splat books, themes, the...

Yep. Best attitude for a DM, honestly.

Matskralc, one thing: Celtavian already mentioned that he was not running Banishment correctly earlier in the thread, when Hemlock asked about it. So your breakdown doesn't really prove much... Yeah, he ran banishment wrong. Yeah, it made the encounter dramatically easier. It happens. He knows...

Sounds like a rough situation, man. :( Hawkeyefan had some good suggestions, I think, but they might not be extreme enough to shake your group out of their current mindset. You could really change it up, play Savage Worlds or FATE or something completely counter to the 3.5/PF style. Or play...