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Yes I would normally agree, but the second player seems intent on wanting to play someone who can't actually do anything much.

You can nerf magic heavily, like how it works in most other systems, and you could have something workable to fit both players in. Another option is to play low level only, which would also fit both players in. The key understanding is that the character the second player wants to play is...

No they're player characters. They're heroic.

Why? They're not player characters. What's the point?

How is it not relevant? What the player characters can do has nothing to do with what non player characters can do. It's like arguing that if martial characters can lift things too heavy for a normal human to be able to lift, any random farmer should be able to reach that potential. (yes I've...

Why would it need to be any character? It's not any character. It's a player character.

You mean because of the flat modifiers? Because I can't think of anything else about the skill system that lets them outshine anything.

True, but this is one of the few rpg related things I've seen debated online that is also discussed irl. At least where I am.

It's fairly obvious it needs more balance given the frequency of these threads.

Nah you need a holistic approach to this. You can't just pick an arbitrary quality that some edition had and say that it was because of this quality that this edition was not popular / was popular. (also 4E is clearly better designed than 5E just saying, flame war ahead etc. etc let's go)

No. It's more difficult to make plans (be creative) when you have no tools. Casters have more tools, hence they can be more creative. This is like the strange argument that balance doesn't matter because you don't have to pick a bad class. Bad classes shouldn't exist; all classes should be good.

The reason why these discussions become so incredibly frustrating is because some people see a problem that other people argue don't exist, and heck we've seen the exact same thing play out even back in 3.0 and 3.5 with the same kind of arguments by, quite possibly, the same people debating...

Tuesdays: Pathfinder second edition. Good system, but also quite heavy. We're into our second campaign, Stolen Fate, having finished Abomination Vaults. Thursdays: Lancer. Great mech-rpg. It should appeal to people who like mechs and who feel D&D is too mechanically bloated and not tactical...

I think his point is that the entire system is absolutely inconsistent already and the reason people don't complain about it is that they have learned to not see it, but anything that is inconsistent and new is something else entirely.

The more I think about this the more it seems that monsters should maybe be designed like how they work in Lancer. Because I think that might satisfy more people than what we currently have. You have a number of basic classes all of which are roughly equal. In addition you have a number of...

Very dismissive. The bolded part is patently false and in fact the opposite is true. Casters are not limited to spells. Spells are not a limitation, and they can always use skills too anyway. Casters have more things they can do than non-casters because casters have spells and non-casters...

He obviously means martials in general. I'm just bringing up champion as an example of a possible baseline to start from. This is what they said: "There should be a basic standard that all Martials should start with. Then the option to stay basic, go advance, or jump to expert." Pick something...

You are overcomplicating this thing something fierce. We already have a standard for basic. The champion. We can use that as a starting point.

That's a bit dismissive. I'm not going to be able to convince you or anyone, but let's just say that my experience of the phenomenon was first hand. Once I had experienced it, though, I could begin to think back on a number of separate occasions where other people shared my sentiments as well...

The bolded bit was effing excellent. You could play a non-caster who could actually have an effect on the battlefield. You didn't have to just hit things with standard attacks. The system definitely had issues, though. Not a fan of what they did to all the lore. 13th Age does indeed look like...