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Which as an arguement is both silly, and completely ignores the idea of moderation. for example I have a character heavily invested in wands of CLWs (long story, rather not discuss it), in part because it's cost efficient (IMC, ATM). To extrapolate that it's stupid to bring along other HP...

Would you please not mock me? I'm trying to get somewhere with this. Actually I'm trying to get an MP3 player to work right, but I'm here anyway.

What you're fighting in a scenario isn't relevant? I doubt I could say that to my GMs. "Y'know chief, it doesn't matter what we're fighting here, because y'see I got this spell the ENWorlders tell me makes what I'm fighting irrelevant because it's so broken. Please give me the treasure and XP...

I believe part of your point was that they were going up against dragons 9 CR above them and winning. Any idiot that can find a dragon can attempt to fight it even if they're not a mage. Or is it just that they can do gobs of damage when the stars are aligned and that's just not kosher? Are...

Prove this is how they are always encountered.

You're kidding right? Math without details is meaningless! If I said D=MC^2 with nothing else how is anyone to know I wasn't making a typo and meant something completely different? If the dragon gets a surprise round (or just initiative) all the orbs in the world aren't going to help dead mages.

A Great Wyrm White Dragon has 13 feats to blow, casts as a sorcerer. Within 4 of those feats I could give him a +8 init (using LG open material). With but a fraction of his treasure a 21 Dex (that's another +5 init). With the other 9 feats he can take metabreath feats to cheese that out too...

But is that how they're always, or even normally encountered?

What? Ok, I'm rooting for orbs to not be broken because I secretly think that if they're 'proven' not to be broken on an internet forum that I profit? I hate to tell you but as far as I know there's not even a single person I game with on this forum, much less any gamer that has influence on...

In short, if we're to even use this scenario (which I've already poked a hole in with the nonexistant feat, and is heavily biased towards the orb user), I want all the details to look over. At the very least how a party of X many people can reliably manage to sneak all of themselves into a...

Who are the rest of the party? When did 'always' mean four pages into the thread? Why are they in an example about the sheer brokeness of a series of spells? Why is a throw away line in one post suddenly canon, but a whole post about ways to change the scenario is disregarded? On second...

And why is it like this? Is it because his position is more active in voicing their opinion, or the OP doesn't understand why the spells bypass SR, or what? How am I suppose to come up with a counter to something not shown? He's never shown all his work (or if he has never all in one place)...

In your campaign, possibly in many campaigns, but not in all campaigns to be sure. I know I prefer larger numbers of opponents as it keeps people from the whole bumrush the big guy and supernova attitudes. Then said dragon does 42 points of damage (still white dragon here, weakest of the true...

What?! Hold up, so the default is a widgit is broken unless it's proved not to be broken? I just don't buy that.

I don't believe your numbers. Because it was blatently one sided. Single target, low touch AC (as it was appearently surprised or too stupid to have scintilating scales ready), non-resistant to damage, high saves, still a single target (this point is big enough to list twice). I have a...

Problem being that I never admitted it murdered dragons at all. Furthermore with wizard Init you're not even close to guaranteed to go first against the dragon. Even a surprise round in the dragon's favor (not to mention a full round's worth of actions by a dragon) kills your orb chucker just...

If memory serves metamagics were in his first examples. In either case it's the same story with any uber ___ build when you over specialize you breed in weakness.

Love the hyperbole, keep it up! If you want to weaken you case with these absurd instances in any case.

There's more force spells now than Magic Missile. BTW metamagics further skew the numbers in your favor since the evoker is using his highest spell slot and thus can not use any of those neat metamagic feats. Not only that but it's 6 feats for a 15th level wizard. Did neither of them want to...

But then the examples wouldn't be horribly skewed in their favor!