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RC, you seem to be treading both sides of the argument. CaGI and other powers of that nature are by definition not magical, since they're used by Martial characters. This is per RAW. I'm not "changing the language," I'm going by RAW. Martial characters use exploits. These exploits represent...

Yeah, whoops, forgot about that little clause. Well heck! That should put this whole issue to bed. Who's up for some Tex-Mex? :D I might be back for more discourse later, y'all have fun.

Which is why I wouldn't describe it as a taunt, unless we're talking...I don't know...some kind of Super Taunt. And heck, they get a save against that, anyway. These artillery guys need to man up.

Only house ruled in the RPGA sense. One can always roll a 6! I actually had to look up whether it's possible. It's not probable, but it is possible.

Camouflage, drugs, alternate medicine. You got me on the "granting wishes" though. We could do this all day, RC, but the fact of the matter is, the descriptor you're giving to "magic" is YOURS, and is thus subjective.

Plus, there are plenty of ways to describe it other than a taunt/jeer.

I'm claiming that the inhabitants of a 4E game don't view this as magical because it isn't magical. RAW doesn't say it's magical, nothing in the power says it's a magical effect. Here's the problem: You're seeing the "pull" portion of CaGI as inherently magical. It's not. It's whatever the...

How about those Fighter powers that do automatic damage to adjacent enemies? That's gotta be magic, right? A fighter can't swing his sword without a ROLL. That implies some kind of phantom...sword...thing.

Yes, when using CaGI, the character controls the actions of others. 's how the power is written. This control is a phenomenon of the game being played, not the setting presented. It's not setting dependent, obviously. Also, could you answer my question? Answering questions with more...

Yeah! I'm starting up an Invoker who's collaborating with a god of knowledge, and I'm thinking that these inconsistencies will actually help develop his theories on systems and what-not. When even the gods are beholden to the math of the world, one wonders if there is something much, much...

Right, but where in RAW does it say that controlling the actions of others has to be magic?

Wouldn't you need two characters to do this?* I just can't picture one guy with a bow being able to dip an arrow in pitch, light it on fire (with what? the torch he's not carrying?) and shoot it, every round. Otherwise, you'd have to spread out some pitch and find something to hold the torch...

RC, could you elaborate on how a "character power" is different from a "player power?" If a player utilizes one of his character's powers, doesn't it automatically become a "player power?" Could you also elaborate on why this is important to the discussion? Are you saying that only "character...

Ah. I was just a little confused with you saying a player can use a power without using a character, which doesn't make sense. Thanks for the clarification! Might want to stay away from the word "power," though, considering it's a 4E term now. :)

What?

Hey guys, I'm back. I brought donuts! I'm thinking we should all get together and really hash this stuff out over a beer at GenCon. And then play some Dread. At any rate, maybe part of the problem we're all encountering in coming to a consensus (because, you know, I assume we're going...

On the basis that you probably didn't know Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson personally. Maybe they liked to play Toon. Maybe they secretly LOVED it. You invoked their names as a defense of D&D in general. Partially, I agree with you! It's fairly ludicrous to think that 35+ years of gamers lacked...

You make good points, Imaro. When I thought up the Rage/Spell(Rage) comparison, I had forgotten how complex the spellcasting system was in 3.5. I've pretty much forgotten what our spirited debate is about, so let me regroup here. It seems like we're really arguing over whether or not all...

Well, nothing's perfect. Have you told them what you've found? I'm sure they'd appreciate it.

Never said it was a GOOD spell. :) Your mechanical differences stem from the nature of spells themselves, rather than the spell in question. It's a fair point, but not relevant to all levels of play. The benefits of the Rage for the barb and the Rage spell are equal, though, which is the...