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I agree with all this, but more fun to play is an entirely subjective metric, so absolutely refers to my perspective.

Ok time to bring some real math into this discussion assuming an actual Monster. Against an Ancient Red Dragon (2014 version) AC22 +16 Con save with 3 legendaries A 2014 Monk using FOB, Focused Aim and Stunning Strike over 2 rounds averages 57 damage and uses 9.6 ki on average A 2014 Monk...

So you had a Wizard, Paladin, Cleric and Monk. What other classes did you have? I think a Bladesinger is the best martial you can build in 2014. The Bladesingers that have leaned into weapon fighting really excelled at that. It is not as true using the 2024 rules because the other martials...

No they are not. Yes you can, you can move between your attacks. The only way you are not getting them is if they are not close enough to you. But there are magic items that boost unarmed strikes. There are magic items for both. Further if you are talking about what feats and magic items...

No they are not way better than Monks. If you want damage Drunken Master is not even a very good Monk, but it will outdamage a fighter by quite a bit as you can do 7 attacks like every round and your attacks are more likely to hit to boot. Ok add that stuff in, redo the math considering that...

Because we are talking about whether an ability is disruptive, you played two sessions, you might have not seen it even be used. If you did see it be used it was not very often. It is just not a large sample size. So now you are telling me I am wrong when I tell you what I like? I say I...

I disagree with this, for one thing I think 6 people is a large party, 4-5 is average IME. Moreover there are a lot of times you have multiple PCs making checks, Athletic checks for climibing, stealth checks, perception checks, survival checks for foraging.

And like I said, most of them are better controllers than Fighters A 2014 20th level Fighter gets 8 attacks with action surge. With a 2d6 weapon those are going to do 96 damage if all hit and if the monster is not resistant, which a lot are at this level and he can do it 2 turns in a row. A...

It is not any skill check, it is any skill check using the chosen ability. This makes it far less flexible IME. For example you give it to the Rogue before he checks out the chest. You give it to him on Dexterity, well he can't use it to do a Wisdom (perception) check to see if there are...

And I could not find where either of them said high level Monks were weak. I did find where Treantmonk, who evaluated over all levels not tier 4, actually said he does not weight high-level features as much. If they actually said this tell me where to find it. I put what I found from those...

Actually twice a day is repeatedly. Because I don't think seeing something in play in 2 sessions is the same as seeing it in 20 or so. Yes. I've said that many times on this forum, over and over again. It is not just Fighters though, it is all non-casters. If Fighters wan't abilities...

Survival is a big part of combat, especially at high level. Further this is not entirely true, several Monks can Nova a lot better than other 2014 non-casters and almost all of them can control a lot better than 2014 non-casters. The best control options for Monks are subclass abilities, not...

When I said to give me an example, I actually wanted someone who claims Monks are weak in tier 4 like you are. I did not find that from the people we mention. go back and relook at those, I don't think any of them claimed a high-level Monk was weak. Most of the youtubers evaluate it in...

It is not as good as you think. If I remember correctly it was randomly generated .... so you could get to level 5 and pick up Feign Death instead of Fireball.

If you think Spirit Guardians is bad you should try Yolanda!

Fighters are substantially better than Rogues at most skill checks from level 2 to level 6.

Jack of all trades is a Bard thing, but at low levels Guidance is 2.5 on average and proficiency is only 2. I do think it is a bit overblown as guidance has been nerfed to only work with one skill to be named ahead of time and it still requires concentration.

Who are these "plenty of people" that have played Monks and said they are bad in tier 4? Who's analysis?

He saves repeatedly on things he shoudl not save on and it makes no sense to save on. Ok so you have not played a single campaign, it is based on theory and a couple one shots. They should have way more ways. They are casters. But I don't need to compare a Fighter to a caster to know what...

I don't know what you mean by "main feature" these features were not effective at high level. they were weak unless you had a subclass boost to FOB. Other uses of ki are more effective, way more effective. What is not weak is the Monks other abilities and some of their subclass abilities...