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OK, so I said that a very specific comparison pemerton made was unreasonable. And you are trying to argue with me over something that has nothing to do with that specific comparison. Go argue with those "very same people who want their terms accepted", don't go trying to twist something I've...

So, to be clear, you feel that a typical Actual Play and the original Dragonlance modules inherently offer high amounts of player agency?

The comment where you did so was a bit earlier in the conversation, prior to the first part of said conversation that I quoted. This is the part where you imply that it's hypocritical of @AlViking to complain about you claiming their style of play (which is intended to focus on providing...

I have no experience with BW, but this just sounds like a roundabout way of saying, "I don't want to play Burning Wheel, but if I did play anyway, I'd do it without buying into the premise and actively trying to subvert it." If the game is about creating a character with beliefs that will cause...

From where I'm sitting, all it's illustrating is that it's easy to craft an example that at least superficially appears to suit any given argument, if the example doesn't need to have any basis in reality. Your example is an attempt to suggests that if someone compares two things and decides...

That's a nice hypothetical, but is anyone actually claiming that Adventure Paths inherently offer the same degree of agency as game styles specifically designed to promote agency? Is that person part of a large group of like-minded people? I don't think it's controversial to suggest that APs...

A lot of this post seems to me to be pointless quibbling over the definition of contrivance, things that come across as "Technically, you could call this contrivance, so why are you OK with that?" I'm OK with it because it's not the type of contrivance that bothers me, or I don't think of it as...

My response to the narrativist response is that I don't generally like the contrivance and a style of play that embraces it is not usually what I'm looking for. It's really just as simple as that. Now, taking a step back and looking at things objectively, it is always possible that when I run...

It's like if you give someone a car, they might be able to do what they want with it but, at the end of the day, it's still a car. Except ... they might decide to pull it apart and use it to build all sorts of things that have nothing to do with what a car is for. At which point, the car is no...

The Pope and (I believe) the King of England were the two actual comparisons made via analogy earlier in the thread.

Yeah, my comment on agency was written as if it was a value judgement, when it shouldn't really be. It was there because I know I've engaged with people in this discussion who spoke very strongly about agency, and I assumed you were one of them but, on reflection, I don't actually recall if that...

That's one way to play. But that sounds like removing a lot of player agency to me. As an involved and invested participant in the game, having my own feelings as GM about how I would like the game to progress is obviously something that is going to happen. As I mentioned quite some time ago...

Yes, I clearly didn't do it fast enough, but I actually went back and changed my wording in the bit you were responding to there, because there are some situations where the advice I was giving won't necessarily apply. I think it does apply to most of the specific examples I've come across in...

No real disagreement there. I think I covered the second point as part of my final example (that was my intent at least), but it could probably have been separated out into it's own thing. Your first point can certainly be an issue and is why I try really hard to make sure I set clear...

I'm not sure that anyone has actually said you shouldn't give GMs feedback or ask questions. Someone may have, but most people seem to be in agreement that it is not only acceptable, but desirable, to ask for clarification if you have doubts about reasoning, technique, etc. Most people also...

My advice is: If you don't like what the GM is doing, mention it. If you don't like the answers you get, try and find a compromise solution. If you can't reach a solution that satisfies you, leave. No player should feel obligated to participate in a game they're not comfortable with, and...

I'm not sure I disagree with any of that. Lack of trust in the context I've been talking about is something like a hyper-vigilance for any possible slip, or an active worry that something might be a problem not because there are signs of a problem but simply because there is no overt proof...

To be clear, I don't really understand not extending trust in judgement in an RPG session, where the stakes are low (worst case you waste a few hours, maybe a couple sessions) and the potential pay-off is reasonably high if it's something of interest to you (many sessions of fun). There are...

All styles of play are dismissive of concerns that boil down to, "I don't like this style of play". I edited a bit while you were quoting me, and it might be important to us understanding each other: I would assume that the style of game has established up front (if not, I believe it certainly...

In this case, grievance appears to be, "I don't like this style of play." We don't have a GM here maliciously withholding critical information. It has been pointed out and agreed that, in this example, it's a GM running a game that uses secret information. I would assume that the style of game...