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To be clear I did not assume anything. 1. Holy Ardor grants a "Critical Hit". 2. "Critical Hit" says "Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage." 3. How much damage to I do? 4. I look at the power I'm...

But it remains that I make no assumptions in my reading. Stick to what the rules say and not what you want to read into them. The bold part is what matters. You have assumed that because it seems like a contradiction in terms that "it must not be true". To me it is quite clear that the...

I actually think I can answer this. One version is the declarative "you score a critical hit" and the other is conditional "IF you score a critical hit". The declarative is granting max damage to a given attack (which can be nullified by my above arguments about "Hit" and "Miss") and the other...

I have to say there are two really gaping holes in their position. First is that because you are using OoE (an ability that has nothing to do with Holy Ardor) and rolling two dice to "attack" that if you have this other ability and you roll doubles it is no longer an attack. Did you roll dice...

Darn work...I just can't reply quick enough to keep up. I'm curious about something among those of us saying Critical Hit <> Hit (Flipguarder, Keyters, myself, Draco, and any others I may have left out). Do any of you believe that RAI is the same as the position we are defending? I'll start...

To use your car analogy from earlier: I have a steering wheel, therefore I have a car. The steering wheel represents your critical and the car represents a "hit". The steering wheel is a subset of "car", but just because you have one it does not necessarily follow that you have a car. The...

Seconded.

If you are going to apply the rule (ie use it to prove your assertion of crit = hit noting that is has never been used in this fashion) then I have to stick with yes you are stuck with all parts of the rule and it's requirements. If you were only using it's definition then I'd agree, but you're...

All of this misses the mark completely. I'm going to do two cases below to show the options the way I see it. 1. Holy Ardor provides a critical hit. 2. This overrides the normal hit rules. 3. Since this is the case we can no longer look at any of the hit rules to prove what Holy Ardor does...

I have finally put my finger on what I think bothers me most about this. Assertion: "Score a critical hit" = "hit" How is this proven? Normally in exception based design the power giving you the exception (Holy Ardor in this case) would tell you exactly how it lets you break the normal rules...

If I accept your assertions as true the the following must also be true: Power A: Effect: You shift 3 squares. General shift rules: You cannot shift while prone. Power A now allows you to shift while prone because of the absence of the word "can". Because as we know the general rules don't...

Without page 276 and 278 in the PHB a critical hit is nothing and means nothing. How did you know to apply max damage without reading the critical hit rules you so firmly want to ignore? A critical hit is first defined in the Hit rules on p276 which then sends you to p278 for more detailed...

One other thought. In order to get from Critical Hit = Hit you have to reference (gasp) the Hit rules so now on the one hand you want to say that your "score a critical hit" automatically gives you a hit, but conveniently ignore the rest of the hit rules you are referencing because they don't...

He is describing the same thing I've been saying all along in a different context. What it comes down to is this one simple difference between our two viewpoints. Those that say Holy Ardor grants a hit even if you don't beat the targets defense follow this line of logic: 1. I rolled doubles...

(clarification) 1) "you can score a critical hit" is the same as "you score a critical hit" for feats and powers/features. Both refer back to the rules on hits/criticals. 2) There is already precedence for this as you can roll high enough to get a crit and still miss with some features...

In an exception based system yes they do. We're not talking about a literal math subset as your link implies. We're talking about game rules and to assume that they have some sort of math subset like capability where if you are part of a subset you are part of it's larger superset is just as...

I'm reminded of a scene from a very funny movie "My Cousin Vinnie" near the beginning. Joe Pecshi is trying to tell the judge that his clients are innocent at the arraignment and the judge (Fred Gwynn) starts talking to him about procedure, saying "It sounds to me like you want to skip the...

Ok...I surrender. Precision is not a rule it is just a reminder of the normal hit/miss rules. Critical hit here is clearly indented and subservient to Hit. 1. Using OoE roll 2 dice and pick the larger of the 2 results (at this point it does not matter if you roll doubles). 2. Add your...

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that automatic hit and critical hit are the same rules. They are separate rules that describe the requirements for two independent situations. It's really fairly simple. If you treat all references to critical hits as a reference to the critical hit...

Perhaps you missed the ruling from Customer Service above in the post by Artoomis who has been arguing that position for 10 pages of this thread and has now been ruled wrong.