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I hereby declare the two previously posted mechanics the entirety of my new "game". I call it "The diegetic dumpster fire" (TDDF). I am refering to the mechanics of the game TDDF. Surely you have heard about it? It isn't very popular though. Might be because the mechanics really stinks to high...

"Every time a player sneezes (trigger), the torches to go out (result) as the god of fire briefly feints (information of how the result is acheived)" "Everytime a player with glasses declare their character try to climb (trigger) their character fall down (result) as they are struck by...

I am confused. You seem to argue using the critical roll against the PC as an input to narrate something diegetic into the situation, makes this mechanics diegetic? I thought that was exactly what I tried to propose as the potential intended understanding of the terms? And this can clearly...

"Hopes being accurate" doesn't make sense. Exactly. A conjecture. Not a hope. These two situations are very different: "OH, runes. I think from what I know from before that it might be some map. Hope I am right. Let me try to decipher them." and "OH, runes. Wonder what they say? A map would...

Exactly. You so you see the danger of using imprecise language? I was using the word "seed" in the other extreme interpretation, I guess that might be more to your liking? I really wonder how a mere guide can assure the final produced narration to make diegetic sense tough? I would think a...

I don't see the problem? Updating Conway's game of life by hand can be a tedious task, and are far from immersive. But I don't think you would make the claim that this wouldn't be doing a simulation? I think the reason people would balk at the idea of the DM aking a series of yes/no questions...

The world cannot be changed as it must be adhered to. This in no way shape or form prevents adding to the world as long as it doesn't contradict adherence. (Note - this is just how I read the following passage. I do not associate myself with this manifesto beyond being a reader that is barely...

Problem with the runes example was not that it was made up on the spot. If the GM had decided on the spot before any roll was made what the runes said, I think noone would have had a problem with it (Edit: OK, if we have some fanatic Soerensen disciples here, that might make an exception). If...

I know this is the major topic discussed right now. So I think I might be really missing the point. But "How is a system ... diegetic" Make absolutely no sense to me. As pointed out a couple of days ago that would mean the characters somehow being aware of a system being at play Order of the...

Ask the Oracle is generally used as a tool to support the simulation. The questions are assumed to be limited to what could be reasonable simulation outcomes. In your example asking "Is it a distracting ice cream truck?" would be a foul for most games of Ironsworn. Edit: Or are we back to the...

Indeed. See my second mode - where the characters is the game.

Now I think I remember the context in which I would have myself argued the runes example would be at odds with simulation. At that point the idea of wanting to simulate a world fully independent of the players, beyond (limited) control over their character's physical actions was in my...

Depends on the game. In modern D&D, absolutely. But I think even some of the earliest more story focused play might have stumbled into this pattern without a mechanical focus. To me it sort of seem like this is something dragonlance aspires to do, but sort of misses the point as it isn't the...

Yes? Such such play described there wouldn't match the mode described in my post? And so what? I didn't use the word sandbox once in that post, and it was certanly not an attempt at describing (all) sandbox play? It was describing a third mode I thought would be "stable", coherent, and common...

Just to make it clear: I really do not think these two are the only "stable" modes of RPG play. I however found them interesting to put side by side, as every creative responsibility seem to be reversed. A very common mode of play would be one where the players create highly detailed characters...

I think that is to broad to be directly useful for the analysis I was looking for. But I think this gave me something to work with to show a possible framing where I think the mechanism in the runes example can indeed be recognised as supporting the simulation. As we are in a world of omens...

I cannot talk for @clearstream . I think I am engaged in several layers of this. - On the level of game I have expressed strong sceptisism with regard to whe value of having a "simukationist" classification at all. - On the level of play I have tried to amplify @clearstream 's recent musings...

I think this puts word to a central concept I have been circling around myself. To what extent is the character the game? I now realise this might indeed just be a facet of a much more profound observation about the distribiton of creative input. If we take the hard core old school as a...

I just wanted to confirm your notion regarding my use, ref I also wanted to say I believe it might be possible to look at certain instances of play, and look for simulative value in them. I am afraid we are far from having the kind of framework needed in terms of common langue to get good...

Well, the concepts of aether, and phlogiston was around for quite a while as well..