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If you needed to know how they smash the vase because it wasn't clear in their action declaration, how would you approach that? It's only ever a possibility to begin with until confirmed. In this case, I don't imagine anyone, in this discussion anyway, has purposefully created a test of the...

Probably worth pointing out that concerns around making clear the character's approach to the goal possibly resulting in "metagaming" or "take-backs" were raised by Lanefan and later greg kaye, not me. If they have the "trust" that you suppose here, then why were those concerns raised? It...

What rules are you referring to though? "Be reasonably clear in your description?" That's hardly a rule in my view. It's just two humans trying to communicate better about a fictional space so the game flows more smoothly. It takes away the need for the DM to ask clarifying questions to get at...

It's just a more succinct way of saying "describe what you want to do."

I don't think trust has anything to do with this, nor do I impose "rigid codes of conduct" on anyone. Unless you think "Be reasonably clear with your action declaration so we can all understand what you're trying to do" is rigid. I don't think it is, and have shown by way of example how that can...

The example of the troll looks to me like more evidence of something I observed upthread: Many who don't like "metagaming" sure do seem to go out of their way to create opportunities for it to occur in their game. This doesn't make them liars. They're just engaged in approaches that don't...

Yeah, I actually change very few, relatively speaking, to suit whatever specific challenge I want to present. It's never about subverting "metagaming," which I don't care about. That's just a byproduct of the approach that some folks who do care about "metagaming" might consider adopting. All...

But see, the troll is a test in my view and it can lead to breaking "immersion." You could choose instead to not use trolls or you could alter the way trolls work (e.g. fire doesn't stop their regeneration on the trolls of the Fire Caves of Argh, who are tainted with devil's blood), and let it...

To be clear, I don't dictate anything to my players or to "the rest of the community." Making observations and sharing experiences is not dictating anything about how you or anyone else must play. I would ask that be the last time we have to address that here. Grog Strongjaw's player can also...

That they're cool with this doesn't mean it obviates the potential issues that arise from the approach which have been noted in earlier posts. As far as freedom goes, you're free as a player to be clear with your action declarations or free to be vague or noncommittal. Since the game is...

Say "I smash the vase with my bare fist" instead of "I smash the vase" and leaving it a question as to how. What's rigid about this? The player is just describing what they want to do, which is part of their role in the game. The upside is I don't have to ask any clarifying questions (which some...

The very techniques I'm describing remove those opportunities. If the expectation of the table is that a player is reasonably specific in their action declarations to include goal and approach, we get something like "I smash the vase with my bare fist" instead of "I smash the vase." But for...

If it's true, then I would say there's a strong correlation between that and people who also don't want to adopt techniques to mitigate against opportunities for "metagaming." Sure, sometimes you'll see people try to roll dice for the players to avoid it, but when we suggest something like "ask...

The more I've engaged with this topic over the years the more I've come around to the idea that the objection so often voiced isn't to "metagaming" at all. You and I have both offered a number of approaches to the game that mitigate both the opportunities for and incentive to "metagame." But the...

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I don't see it as any of my business to know a player's motivations for having their character do a thing. I just need to know what they are trying to accomplish and how so I can perform my role as DM. If they're being "uncharacteristically cautious" about this vase for any reason, that's their...

The player has not established how they will be smashing the vase. And that's very important in my view for all the reasons stated upthread.

In the experience of your game, sure. In my game, it's expected you give your goal and approach with reasonable specificity. No "trouble" can start at all, not can it lead to the next bit: I firmly disagree. The player establishes what the character is doing, not me as DM, short magical...

If the players understand the expectation is to state their approach to the goal to make it a valid action declaration the DM can then adjudicate, then there's no asking for "picky extra details." This also avoids conflict that arises from assuming or establishing what the characters are doing...

Right. What if the vase has a contact poison on it or it's a mimic? Did you touch it with your bare hands? What if it contains an unstable, explosive substance or magic rune? Did you smash it near you or throw it far away? What if it contains something that corrodes metal? Did you slash at it...