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I still dislike this sentiment! I'm not gonna say you're flat-out wrong, but. All I'll say is I personally can't imagine conceptualizing/playing a Ranger who doesn't appreciate the world they live in in that way. Unless it's specifically a part of their backstory, and overcoming that jadedness...

I see what you're saying there, but I mostly think it's a semantics thing. It's fine to say that Druids, Rangers and Barbarians have a fundamentally different relationship to their magic than Wizards or whoever, it mechanically being just a spell list like any other can just be for the players'...

Must say I'm not entirely opposed to that, that's more or less what I'm doing with my current Ranger homebrew tinkerings anyway. The only thing I've held over so far besides the general template is Feral Senses. Though I like them getting it earlier and, it also just being a bit better. Might...

Maybe this is a dumb question, but. Is there especially a reason why the Ranger can't be more this? Either through a complete retooling, or just options, or spells similar to the Smite spells, or what have you? Obviously I know WOTC won't ever do it, but. For the sake of spitballing. Even just...

I don't wanna get super into it all over again or anything, but I dislike these pigeonholes for these classes. Much as I get why they may be appealing as answers to their respective roles. That said, I do like parts of the following descriptors. Like yeah, that's a neat way of putting part of...

I hate that too! I'd at least appreciate Druidcraft.

Yeah that's what inspired it, in part.

I somewhat dislike this, even if it's true. I like this though!

Okay, sure, I think that's fair to say. I do think they should lean into it comparably to the other two, though. What might be a workable way to bring them more thematically into the Primal sphere in that case? I guess particularly, with an aspect centered around their spellcasting that's also...

I definitely agree with some of this, Ranger's virtues not being all in phyiscal nor magical power, but in their intuition and flexibility certainly. But I do still kinda dislike the comparison of Rangers to Wizards, and the idea that they pick up magic just because it's useful that tends to go...

No I know, not trying to put words in your mouth, just saying I think the difference can be more blurred in a Fantasy setting, and especially through the lens of a Ranger. True, maybe not. At least not through a generous lens. Metal and fire come from the earth n' all that. This is mostly a...

I did figure, I mostly was too! Just also yes, it is a bit of a tangent to get properly into. Though I'm sure some would be more than happy to.

Hey I'm more than happy to cut it off here. It's the magic I'm trying to get a completely satisfying answer for.

All this said, I think we're mostly getting caught up in semantics a bit. I do take your point of course, yeah Rangers do use the tools of "civilization", but I don't think civilization has to be strictly antithetical to nature from the point of view of a Ranger, because humanity is nature...

Whenever this fact comes up, I'm inevitably reminded of that Attenborough video. Look at her go! (The whole thing in context is actually pretty fascinating but this clip out of context is still funny to me)

I feel like you're being needlessly combative with some of your responses, and I sincerely do not care to continue talking about this with you on that basis. Have a good one.

Yeah we don't of course, but surely it's fair to say some do in a fantasy setting. If not a fair few.

Right, sure. But even still, using tools and tactics are/were our assets as creatures within nature. I don't think they necessarily require a majority stake in civilization. Even if it generally does shake out to be so.

You said they're strongly associated with Gods and Churches, and I'm saying that's not an essential part of the Paladin's make-up like it is for Cleric's. Faith is, but faith as religion specifically, isn't. It's strongest in the Oath of Devotion, and can apply to a couple of others, but it's...

Not necessarily! It's mainly really Devotion Paladin, Conquest I guess if you want to take them in that direction but it's not part of their DNA. You wouldn't say a Vengeance Paladin or an Ancients Paladin has to be centered around a deity or church. Besides, I'm not saying they don't have...