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In your opinion, does this apply to Hussar's assessment of PF as well as your current assessment of PF2E?

Again, this is just a repeat of the same song. There is nothing to suggest success. There is a lot more than "just one retailer" to take less than positive information away from. You can poo-poo on each individual indication. But if you don't look at a series of signs all pointing in the...

Not everything is equivalent. Pointing to the lack of evidence of growth is not at all in the same tier as pinning all your hopes on players who are completely refusing to play now but will suddenly send the needle surging up after the APG comes out. It is disingenuous to equate the two. Heck...

But there is no need to mention it at all. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. It comes off as saying "well, OBVIOUSLY it was going to fail, 5E was an impossible standard." There is no other reason to even bring it up. It sounds like an effort to get out in front of bad news and make it sound...

Why does "catch 5E" keep coming up? Nobody is saying that. It seems a really false standard and presumes failure. They can be very far behind 5E and be a success. If APG can create a change then that will be awesome. I suspect they will get another bump with that as a Gencon release, at a...

And, FWIW, Amazon is a much different company now. I think comparing even really good Amazon data head to head between 2010 and 2020 would be difficult to interpret. A lot of brick and mortar game stores went under since 2010.

I'm completely certain you are right about needing a new edition. I still think there are paths they could have taken with a much better chance of success. And I'd certainly much prefer to be sitting here talking about how PF2E is awesome and how the comparison to 5E doesn't mean anything rather...

It would certainly be interesting. But I really think you are right not to care. The very fact that this is a point of conversation is a really bad sign. Late era PF sales should be completely meaningless to this conversation.

Here's a nice Ryan D quote from the link "Of course, there's very little relation between the number of people playing TRPGs vs. the number of people buying them. ". We are certainly seeing that here today. That is massively important to the long term health of any game. But it is also...

Heh. You are desperate to keep changing the subject back to the height of PF. Its bad enough you declare your third hand rumors to be absolute fact and everything else to be voodoo. But I already explained why I don't care. Do you have anything to contribute to the topic? I am 100% cool if...

Don't sweat it. If you have a group that likes it then you are good for a long time. Paizo is pretty much locked in for a couple years minimum. And I doubt it will be less than twice that. But that is just gravy. 4E didn't put a dent in my game table. PF2E didn't put a dent in my game...

I was in the questioning side, at least somewhat. My reasoning was that the games are just so different. But, first, it would be silly to claim the number is zero, and I won't do that. And, second, you do make me realize I'm probably too into the weeds here. At the most casual of levels, it...

IMO there is overwhelming evidence of how well PF did. I just don't think it is worth trying to get bogged down here trying to checkmate someone into admitting a fact that they firmly wish to deny. The huge sales of PF are history and I don't think anyone is holding PF2E to that standard. But...

OK so you go on about lack of knowledge and then just make up $5 million a year based on nothing whatsoever. Seems an odd logic path to star with. We all agree that 4E cratered. There is no evidence that the TTRPG industry shrunk in that time, so your assumption that PF didn't pick up the...

What is your alternative assumption? You say that the rest of the thread makes it clear that "they are not" analogous. But I'm not sure that the basic argument about difference in the size of the fanbase makes any difference to the buying behaviors of those fanbases. For example, you said...

I'll tell you what, since you have chosen to fixate on this isolated quote from me based on 10+ year old memories. I'll concede that I was wrong here and I'll just assume you've conceded all the points you are ignoring.

Well, scale is a thing. :) GURPs 4E is much closer to GURPS 3E than anything D&D/PF post AD&D 2E. But there are still some significant differences. WHFRP has changed a million times (well, maybe 3 or 4). Don't even start on Traveler. Vampire is pretty similar, but different. Does Star...

I think one could quibble here. Has there been any game that ever came close to producing new editions with less change in the actual game?

The whole "Pathfinder" name comes directly from their legacy. They were mostly a magazine company early on. Maybe more, but I don't recall much. They did Amazing Stories for a bit, and I think they did a Star Wars gaming bit. But their big thing was when they got the rights to run Dungeon...

sorry, I actually read your comment backwards. my bad.