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@Crimson Longinus One can go from A to B to C provided one doesn’t too specifically define A, B or C. Or maybe better to say, where A, B and C aren’t events but fields of events that occur where the distance of events a1 and a2 is relatively small. What’s happening is your grouping alot of...

I don’t know if I fully agree but I like this perspective. There’s no railroading test unless the players do something not in the predicted campaign. Then it depends on the deemed unfairness of the dm handling IMO.

Is your point that fairness is always in the eye of the beholder? I don’t know that I disagree. But it doesn’t change that this is what railroaded has traditionally referenced. Usually it’s a degree of unfairness that most people independently agree it’s unfair.

Going to the criminal trial example. Assuming the trial process is fair we don’t ever say a court process railroaded a defendant, even if he is sent to prison against his will (in some sense). Thus, railroading stems from the unfair process. That’s what is meant about a defendant being railroaded.

I think you are focused on the wrong aspect. Focus on unfairness. IMO players willingly accept that which they deem fair and don’t willingly accept that which they deem unfair.

The way I see it is if the players willingly follow the path then there is no inherent unfairness involved in keeping them on said path. The unfairness inherent in forced railroading, forced being a bit superfluous but included for emphasis, is what defines it and why it is bad.

Because railroad has a negative connotation established long before rpging. Example: ‘The innocent defendant was railroaded in the backwood southern court.’ The elements are the same here as in rpging. Forced outside the bounds of fairness + predetermined ending. Sandbox has no negative...

Can a player railroad the other players? What about can the players railroad the DM?

IMO. A lot hinges there on player expectations of plausible vs dm ones.

Next up you’ll tell me player agency is easy to define. I’ve been to that rodeo before.

IMO. In our context, there is a difference between updating a single dc number and updating the entire mechanical representation of a creature. Not that I’m particularly a fan of ever increasing dcs for doors but there’s at least a contextual argument that if you are in a level appropriate...

IMO it’s maybe less your intended meaning that’s at issue and more the specific words you are attempting to use to convey that thought. I’ve often phrased that as d&d isn’t the the best choice for any given playstyle. Though I’d certainly say it’s a good compromise choice for players wanting...

I can see that. Like we could simulate the world by never changing the pc stats and just changing monster stats when the PCs level. Relativity for d&d! We could theoretically partially change pc stats and partially change monster stats. However, minions didn’t just possess different core...

I think quantum was negative by us. While we ultimately recognized some aspects of d&d as possessing that quality as well, we doubled down on there being something we intensely disliked, some subset of quantum that we were trying to describe by quantum.

You really don’t see how claiming that D&D doesn’t do any one thing good comes across as claiming it’s piss poor?

IMO. They all run into issues. Many of which are gameplay issues. But yes theoretically you can use another. I’m not theoretically as opposed to a consistent system that doesn’t face the transition issues @Enrahim brought up. But trying to switch between 1 and the other seems quite off for sim.

Yea. It’s the transitions that really highlight the minion concerns from a sim perspective.

Is your point that one of those particular methods should be preferred because I have objections to each. Or is your point that there must exist some concrete method for this that allows minions while alleviating all concerns, because I don’t think this state actually exists. So I’m really...

Sometimes there’s just not a particularly better alternative so you live with what you’ve got.

Don’t the normal stat blocks do that better? Like I don’t have a particular issue with minions from a gameplay perspective, but they do seem to crap all over the sim perspective. In fact they probably make better gameplay. I was definitely more concerned with gamism back when 4e was...