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Fair. Language got sloppy at some point. I was having in mind the distinction proposed in post #19,991. There utilising a in fiction feature was set up against determining the functionality of that feature. The functionality of a feature tend to be strongly associated by it's properties, so I...

It is not really beside the point. The persuasion check also seem inadequate for representing the process of finding an applicable priest. I would have expected being expert in gather information would be more helpful in that regard. (And the example explicitely did not allow for time required...

This might be true for your game. I don't think this is true for my games. I know as a player am considering my GM as an authority in how the game should be conducted. If the GM for instance ask me to stand up when holding a speech, I might refuse. But I would myself consider that an act of...

What seperates negotiating over fiction from the negotiations of diplomacy or Catan? Especially Diplomacy provide me plenty of motivation for mechanical engagement. The mechanics is what informs the negotiation, and the outcome of the negotiations is important in informing my mechanical decissions.

Have you instructed them to stay quiet if they find anything objectionable? If I am sufficiently present of mind in session I would rather instruct my players clearly to inform me if I do something not to their likeing. That is what you describe sound like the opposite of obedience in my case...

Wait a second - are you staying full information is needed for a TTRPG to be gamist?

I think you might be confusing "to obey" and "obedience" ref: "Willing to obey" indicate obedience can be found even in a situation someone doesn't actually obey anyone. How would you envision such a situation?

I thought the argument against "Be fan of the PCs" etc wasn't an argument against pithy phrasing itself, but rather a complaint that this was poor phrasing in the context. That is it might have been an attempt at pithy phrasing, but it failed to be communicative for them. I assume it is these...

Well, If someone claim they don't like narrative games due to this difference: (Go on to claim something noone likes, and that is not part of (most) narrative games, is a defining property of narrative games. And partly correctly go on to assert this is not part of trad games (it indeed is...

I think the problem in the cleric example is - do the cleric have remove curse memorized? I myself would likely have tried to determine that first independently of the persuasion check, but it seem like @clearstream claim that bundling these might be common practice in certain circles at least...

Would it be the same game if the player(s) is leaving?

I like this take. However I find the features I consider important do not really align much with these at all. I can like board games, GM less, railroad and sandbox alike. The structure of the game setup just isn't that important to me. However some things that I think I have identified as...

Well, if you have something that can basically be kitbashed into anything, it is hard to imagine it not possibly being better than everything else no matter what metric you look at as long as you just fine tune it enough in the given direction ;) I think making D&D "good sim" might require more...

Causality relation in the mechanics might be the same, but player input is different. This causes there to be a different causality relation from player input that affects the decision space for the player.

Still can be more sim than D&D though...

"I jump the gap", "I climb the tower", "I kill the goblin" is all action declarations according to 2. None of them makes the thing declared automatically happen. There might be some nitpic to be had regarding formulation, but that us completely immaterial to the point presented. (Edit: that...

Agreed. That doesn't remove the possibility of the mindset of trying to find this while disregarding own preferences. (The latter was a more important qualifier in my post than the "most likely", as that is what show the contradiction) The claim appear to be that there is a particular mode of...

I think the issue here is the following: Either it was a move that was done fully according to the rules of the game with approperiate stakes and balances, in order to confer a benefit to their PC. I that case the example is perfectly valid and good play, the rules allow for a good consistent...

You now have added information compared with your original question I tried to answer. I think you have confirmed that the problem you see isn't wish for "obedience", as such, but rather a more complete package of traits? For what it is worth. I like to offload a serious amunt of the...

I think in one example a Druid was narrated to be busy with a long term acrivity in camp. The perspective proposed would be that the reason they were distracted by this activity was that they didn't spot the aproaching threat. So the start of the activity the druid was busy with happened because...