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The judge in the court case, the moderator of a debate and speaker in parlament typically expect a level of obedience. In these formalised settings you might argue that the required obedience is not "absolute", but for a layperson it still seem pretty near. Still in all of these settings the...

Ah, ok. I think I understand now. You are talking about "diegetic" mechanics, as opposed to my "diegetical" mechanics, or "diegetic" elements of the world. I agree that at these disapears in the limit toward storytelling. However for the computer game case you demonstrate how they can be reduced...

Ok. So if you have a concept in mind that is so tied to the medium of games, that it is impossible to reduce to the "diegetic" that is in common use and well established trough some sort of limit case consideration - what make you think "diegetic" is a good word for the concept you have in mind?

I agree with your analysis. However I guess you agree that what you describe is one spesific design philosophy? This might be extremely common, but I do not think it is an universal requirement. After all the DM is a participant in the game, and I know I enjoy myself as such even though I cannot...

Now you compare reading runes with falling. That is not fair. How is the meaning of the runes determined in a trad RPG? Pay particular attention nothing prevents a DM from postponing making that decission until it has been verified that the characters actually decipher them. The fact that the...

Would you agree that RPG with absolutely no player input or rules would reduce to the activity of one person telling a story? In the case of one person telling a story my understanding is that it is relatively well defined and accepted what "diegetic" means? That is it should be a reasonable...

I think you are laying out the case well if we indeed had been looking at the player mailing a decission about what outcome they prefered. However consider the following interpretation of the situatuation: The characters find the runes. The player of the runes expert is asked what their...

Remove all references to reality and we are close. A simulator is a model with a time/progression component. The most common thing to attempt to model is reality. But there are other things that can be modeled as well. For instance one my unfulfilled goals of my master thesis was to try to...

I think the premise I am stumbling upon is number 4. I would think I have heard somewhere (the proposal that) that willingness to put certain common principles and rules in force for oneself is more or less the definition of entering a game. That is if there is a difference here, the players...

And noone told me! Are you saying that all those wonderfully moments I had, witnessing the cool ideas my players came up with unfold in my simulation, was us playing the game wrong? :oops:

I thought it seem like you and @clearstream agree in this regard? You are just elaborating on different ways this can be lost. Clearstream seem to caution against fragmentation in the meaning of the word while you seem to be cautioning against that a proposed meaning of the word could allow for...

I am a bit confused about this. When I have been doing simulations, the how things act is generally coded into the simulation, the purpose of the simulation has typically been to see what will happen, and any why-s are left to the philosophers? Edit: What you seem to describe is deduction or...

Not a legitimisation. A description. D&D has a staggering number of explicit options. Also trying to run it based on only what is written would reveal it as an utterly incomplete and unplayable mess. I would claim it absolutely relly on the GM and the group to impose some structure not...

I think my answer to @EzekielRaiden touched on this, but in a bit shallow level. I think this asks the relevant question so sharply it warrants a bit more investigation. The problem posed is that even given all the constraints the narration and principles ensuring a mechanics to be...

This one is on one hand similar to the input side, but has a subtlety on the output side that I will further address bellow. On the input side I have already pointed out how a corrupt referee can make an otherwise diegetic rule non-diegetic by letting their own preferences intefer. This in a...

It is possible to recognise common properties of even infinite sets based on how they are defined. For instance I feel confortable claiming that all primes, except the number two, are odd. It wouldn't be reasonable to contest this simply based on the observation that as there are an infinite...

Just wanted to provide a bit more mathematical perspective on this. Even if you have still more options than what you'd care to enumerate, doesn't mean that the set of options might not be smaller than a different set that has even more options than what you care to enumerate. It is true that...

Yes, your wish came true. But for you to claim your hope was hence accurate seem to me like a bizzare use of the word "accurate". You seem to fail to engage with my point about the distinction between hope and conjecture. You are rather further mudeling the water by seemingly trying to set up...

Aaaaargh! I was trying to figure out how to mark the randomiser as optional, failed to find a good language construct to do so, and went on hoping noone would bring up a misreading like this. I was even worried soneone would push me into some bizzare tangent regarding if a trivial randomiser...

Ah, thank you for reminding me! As I really like your suggestion regarding simulationistic experiences, I would rather have that as the defining trait of "simulationistic" play. This make the suggested connection between "diegetic" mechanics and simulationistic play not one of definition, but...