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Ok fair enough. But can a melee burn out for the day if they fail?

Also the people saying it's the same keep ignoring that a spell failure can mean no more spells that day. Are we going to put the melee in the same rule. Every time you swing and miss you can throw your back out and be done till you get some rest?

Then there shouldn't be anymore limits on spells cast per day than melee swings per day. Otherwise there is a huge difference.

Plus saving throws, plus sr,.plus touch attack rolls, plus limits on spells, I don't think it's the same thing especially when you make the magic unreliable. Now if you want to go to say 1e good hits and bad misses and make the martials have to ris sucking chest wound death I 1d4 combat wounds...

Disagree with you. If magic is an unreliable feature then having a game where the player has to attempt to be a team member by relying solely on luck is simply unfun and unfair. Unless we are going to make all the martial stuff that random as well I consider it simply a bad idea.

Then you have to make sure no class only has magic to solve their problems. Only way I see for this type of game to work is no magic classes and we just do rituals.

Problem with that is how do you square player ability to get things done with random losses of resources. Though I think taking certain spells out of per round casting and making them rituals that are either unreliable or reliant on powers who may not be ok with what you are doing or simply...

50/50 odds to use an ability seems unfun

Just play 2nd ed and make all mages wild mages.

I am curious why utility spells would be unreliable. And why anyone would enjoy having unreliable abilities.

That's true I've had DM's call anything over 8 high level. For me it's anything over 12. I've had some tell me it's 18 or 29 plus. But it's never really been quantified by any official source. But I'd really rather decide myself than have someone quantify it for me.

Utility spells yes. Anything cast in combat nope. You had to declare your action or spell at beginning of round not on your initiative. One single point of damage and you lost the spell.

If you stick to the rules yep. After 12ish the DM has to give up on encounter levels and be able to plan based on what they know their party can actually do. You can't use any of the encounter guidelines after that point. It just becomes almost anime rocket tag. But it can be fun if the DM...

I do think at High levels Characters need to feel like they can do things no one else can. Mythical magic Items special powers being able to call in favors from gods etc can fill that void. I think a lot of high levels games get handicapped by GM's freaking out trying to control everything...

Sounds like it feels like AD&D 1E. Especially the magic part.

Now that I'm older and 3rd is an not the new stuff. My groups just want to play. I think this issue was mainly a big thing (in my world at least). Only when the new stuff was coming out. People get excited for new stuff and want the new shiny smell. I understand it. My games have suffered...

You are forgetting one point of damage before your initiative and you lost the spell. Magic using classes in 1e needed all the help they could get

Wow I started with 1e and I don't remember that one. But then I talk to people who never used the surprise rules which made rogues and rangers stealth incredibly useful.

I'd argue it's right to conclude (from my experience anyway), that most DM's adjust on the fly, that it's been going on for as long as DND has existed and that only a small minority on forums ever seem to complain about it. That seems to indicate most players either don't notice, don't care or...

that's an opinion I can respect but I don't see things black and white and different circumstances require different solutions. We just aren't going to agree on where and when to fudge. And that's ok.