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I think the contention stems from the fact that not only in their view should players affect the world in a Watsonian/diegetic manner, while in yours (please correct me if I've misunderstood) it's acceptable from a Doylist/non-diegetic manner, but that distinction then leads you to overstate the...

I do think that more tables could probably benefit from the GM utilising more passive checks, automatic success/failure, etc. Take 10 and Take 20 being more explicit in that regard might have been a boon compared to 5e's approach. I mean official 5e character sheets have sections of not just...

Possibly. The original context was @Lanefan implying he engaged in illusionism, which caused @Hussar to express incredulity that it would occur from the GM side. My assertion was that GMs tend to run the sort of game they would like to play in and so I found Lanefan's comment perfectly...

I did.

Right, but would you actually run a game that you had no interest in yourself, in a style you don't care for? Not that that never happens, of course, but if you're running a game, it's likely one you're interested in yourself, run in a style you'd want to experience as a player. That was my point.

Firstly, I'd not seen that until now, so thank you for bringing it to my attention. I also had my own misgivings about the Six Cultures of Play, much like I do GNS theory, but until we actually have a unified theory that everyone agrees on, we're stuck with these various inaccurate models and...

Right, but it's not about the maths, it's the perception. On an intellectual level, I know it's illogical, but roll under feels different to me than roll over in terms of the objectivity of the world. I was wondering where that line was for others.

I'd say that is an equally valid way of looking at it, but it comes down to whether one is viewing it from the character, or the task. For example, task perspective: this specific lock requires Player A to roll X, Player B to roll Y and Player C to roll Z. Changing DCs. Character perspective...

I'm not sure anyone sees anything wrong with the GM choosing. Simply that rolling is the GM disclaiming decision making because they want to avoid personal bias.

The reason I ask is because I find roll under systems feel subjective to PCs, like if in D&D a GM changed the DC based on who was attempting the action. I was curious as to where people found the dividing line on the objectivity of the world.

The Black Hack is basically an OSR retro-clone of B/X, so yes. BRP, however, is the percentile system used in Call of Cthulhu, Mythras, etc.

Best I can tell, @pemerton views GM-created as synonymous with GM-driven, where others view a distinction.

GMs typically run the sort of game they want to play, so if there's something they value as a player, they're going to use techniques that facilitate that when GMing. It's perfectly understandable for an individual to talk about what they're aiming to deliver player-side from the GM-side.

I disagree with this. "Telling [the GM] what they were doing" is only the approach part of goal and approach. It's got sod all to do with "having terms for everything".

Whilst I haven't explicitly advocated it on these boards, I am a proponent of it, but then you seem to consider me "Narrativist-leaning folk". That said, "goal and approach" is simply a contraction of "players should state their goal and approach", it's hardly the obfuscating jargon that often...

Just to make sure, are you perhaps conflating "goal and approach" with BW's "intent and task"? Goal and approach is simply advice to players to specify both what they're doing (approach) and what they hope to accomplish with it (goal), in order to help the GM adjudicate more accurately, and...

Going by the cultures of play article, Gygaxian D&D would be "classic", not "trad", so yes?

The GM has to serve as the senses of the PC, but at the same time, it's simply not feasible to narrate every detail that we actually take in in real life, so some things get narrated while others are left assumed. I'm of the opinion that anything that sufficiently deviates from the characters...

To use this as a springboard, a question for @AlViking @Maxperson and others who care about the independence of the world: How do you feel about trad/sim systems that use roll-under, like BRP or the Black Hack, where the result is effectively subjective to the character's stat as opposed to an...