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I stand by my statement. It doesn't matter to me.

In the first post, I'm saying, "People can enjoy whatever they like in their own games." In the second, I'm saying, "This is how I handle a situation where I'm confident there will be a negative outcome unless I step in." I can't see how that's contradictory, unless you're suggesting that I'm...

Well, if the original statement was an absolute, I disagree with that as well, and will give @hawkeyefan the benefit of the doubt in being somewhat justified in replying similarly.

Right. Hawkeyfan has spoken. Heceforth no one should waste their time with that and, if they chose to do so, they must be playing wrong. For some people, it might not be considered a waste of time. That's their call to make, in their own game, not yours.

I'm not sure either, then. I do know that, if my players are fixated on some meaningless minutiae and it looks like it's going to result in a lot of boring, frustrating, time wasting in the real world, that no one will enjoy, I'll certainly tell my players and find away to avoid that. I can...

If the player enjoys the style of play being discussed, where the aim is to withhold this type information, then one would assume the players themselves care. And I don't understand why you talk about how player agency is so important, but refuse to consider that the players, in this case, might...

In the hypothetical, the player wants to actually solve the mystery in the same way their character would. Not merely play a character who solves a mystery, but actually work through the same steps to solve it, with the same perspective of events as the character has. If you give the player the...

OK, so I said that a very specific comparison pemerton made was unreasonable. And you are trying to argue with me over something that has nothing to do with that specific comparison. Go argue with those "very same people who want their terms accepted", don't go trying to twist something I've...

So, to be clear, you feel that a typical Actual Play and the original Dragonlance modules inherently offer high amounts of player agency?

The comment where you did so was a bit earlier in the conversation, prior to the first part of said conversation that I quoted. This is the part where you imply that it's hypocritical of @AlViking to complain about you claiming their style of play (which is intended to focus on providing...

I have no experience with BW, but this just sounds like a roundabout way of saying, "I don't want to play Burning Wheel, but if I did play anyway, I'd do it without buying into the premise and actively trying to subvert it." If the game is about creating a character with beliefs that will cause...

From where I'm sitting, all it's illustrating is that it's easy to craft an example that at least superficially appears to suit any given argument, if the example doesn't need to have any basis in reality. Your example is an attempt to suggests that if someone compares two things and decides...

That's a nice hypothetical, but is anyone actually claiming that Adventure Paths inherently offer the same degree of agency as game styles specifically designed to promote agency? Is that person part of a large group of like-minded people? I don't think it's controversial to suggest that APs...

A lot of this post seems to me to be pointless quibbling over the definition of contrivance, things that come across as "Technically, you could call this contrivance, so why are you OK with that?" I'm OK with it because it's not the type of contrivance that bothers me, or I don't think of it as...

My response to the narrativist response is that I don't generally like the contrivance and a style of play that embraces it is not usually what I'm looking for. It's really just as simple as that. Now, taking a step back and looking at things objectively, it is always possible that when I run...

It's like if you give someone a car, they might be able to do what they want with it but, at the end of the day, it's still a car. Except ... they might decide to pull it apart and use it to build all sorts of things that have nothing to do with what a car is for. At which point, the car is no...

The Pope and (I believe) the King of England were the two actual comparisons made via analogy earlier in the thread.

Yeah, my comment on agency was written as if it was a value judgement, when it shouldn't really be. It was there because I know I've engaged with people in this discussion who spoke very strongly about agency, and I assumed you were one of them but, on reflection, I don't actually recall if that...

That's one way to play. But that sounds like removing a lot of player agency to me. As an involved and invested participant in the game, having my own feelings as GM about how I would like the game to progress is obviously something that is going to happen. As I mentioned quite some time ago...

Yes, I clearly didn't do it fast enough, but I actually went back and changed my wording in the bit you were responding to there, because there are some situations where the advice I was giving won't necessarily apply. I think it does apply to most of the specific examples I've come across in...