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yes. I really like this element and the tiered saves also. There are some great ideas in it. To me the actions systems for both PF and PF2E are good, with a slight edge to PF2E.

me too. Maybe that wasn't clear. sorry

I suspect that there are very different ideas of what makes the experience great. And I'm good with that. I think the experience is also very different at Level2 than at level 7, for example. I broadly agree with payn's comment above. A few bad rolls and you get slaughtered and feel like the...

They are elements of pf2e I love. But I think I'm done after this campaign. The things that annoy me certainly track with my 4e concerns. And they get worse with level. I have figured out ways to jailbreak the math and make boss fights fun after multiple on the fly mods. But I don't love...

Any new game has a huge hill to climb. I think that two years from now there will be Dungeons and Dragons. Period. Then there will be Pathfinder as as the "other game". There will also be a vibrant "old school" community happily playing along. But all the new games will be fantasy...

Just 1 opinion here. I'm very glad it isn't just 5E warmed over. I still find 4E just as anti-appealing as I ever did. I see a ton of 4E foundations here. And just about every one of them shows thoughtfulness to make the game adaptable in ways that 4E sorely lacked. I've seen numerous...

Really? Interesting. I suppose we could go bullet by bullet and I'm sure we could find things that I would concede. But not much. When you specifically use the term chassis, with regard to 4E, I certainly think of +level as a design fundamental. Bounded accuracy has its issues (IMO) but it...

I like 5E less and less as time goes by. But I still think it is a good game. And I very strongly agree with the sentiments that it is the greatest version of D&D ever. Other versions are better for me personally. But 5E is head and shoulders above everything else in the mission of...

the latest Orr report doesn't agree.

The gatekeeping claims are 100% BS. To the contrary, people complaining about PF2E want it to appeal to MORE people.

I think this is always true. And triply so on the internet. However, the reverse applies as well. People will insist that the thing they like is perfect "as is" and no amount of evidence will change that. I think PF2E failed to learn from 4E when it went all-in on a math-balance first...

Ultimately that's the thing. There are lots of different things that can be discussed. I see the question at hand to be "is PF2E the crowd-pleaser fan base growing system that it certainly could have been?" I perceive the answer as a clear no. That isn't a knock on anyone who loves it. But...

In entirely constructive: people who don't like a game can't ruin the game. Just think about it. You not liking what they say is understandable. But the people who like the game still like the game and the people who don't still don't. Confusing your personal annoyance with impact on the...

and here comes the blame game....

I don't think it would be productive to drag this thread into this dead horse beating. It is more than fair to claim that without the massive leg up that 4E received by virtue of simply being D&D, it would have not shown up meaningfuly in the ranks of "every single RPG". So judging it in...

Works for me

You are referencing the 2009 PF? Not sure I follow how there as much on that front between 3X and the original PF. And I never have heard anyone express that point either. Over and over I've heard that a fair number of 3X fans were unhappy that PH codified things as even more implicitly...

OK noted. You quoted games "careening out of control" and said that was exactly it, with italics. So I took you to mean just that. If you don't have those problems, then rules whose sole purpose is to solve those problems add zero value while creating unneeded constraints. Different game...

IME the completely open ended narrative nature of RPGs is such that mechanical controls which replace DM judgement virtually always end up doing more harm than good. In the abstract I 100% agree that a seemless support for the DM is good. And less rules are way better than more rules, as long...

Well, PF was, by their own marketing "3.5 Thrives". I think it is much more appropriate to compare PF2E to 4E on this front. And that is specifically "As a reaction (or over reaction) to the complaints against 3X". I would put them in the same ballpark, but IMO, WotC did a much worse job...