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Yeah, the point being that there were so many fans of D&D that didn't carry the tag of "4E fans" that there was more than plenty of room for PF to take over. Keep in mind that there were plenty of 3X fans were dissatisfied with 4E but had been away from 3X for a couple years by the time PF came...

https://www.enworld.org/wiki/top_rpgs/ Q3 2008 - 4E Released Q3 2009 - PF Released Q3 2010 - PF and D&D tie for first (1 year) Q2 2011 - PF#1 (ignore the tie and give 4E a 1.75 year run beating PF head to head) Q4 2014 - 5E released (3.5 years later, all PF #1) Q1 2015 - 5E #1 and never looks...

Actually, this came from ENWorld. Just go to the news page and search for fantasy grounds. As to the analysis, I agree it is pretty noisy. It is hard to say a lot about what is going on. To me the interesting point are: PF2E bumped in August and then immediately fell off. (This tracks with...

nevermind

You are always welcome

I don't think the marketplace shrank. And Pathfinder got a ton of media coverage, etc. I think there is a lot of evidence to think that it was huge right when it took off (release date was 8/13/09 FWIW). But, yeah, I can't quantify that. And did it plateau quickly and just hold on for a...

Pick any screenshot you want. Pick the very best one. There is not a single one that shows growth. (aside from the previously mentioned "it is doing better than it was before it was released" absurdity) Pick your best one and I'll comment on it. How can you deny that you flat out made...

Fair enough. "Selling well" is, again, a relative concept. For a 5 1/2 year old hardcover module, that seems to be beyond question. For a 0 1/2 year old Core Rulebook.... Well, you expected a horserace and didn't get it. So we have that. And that is the thing. Nobody ever expected a...

See, I think this is a great example of cognitive bias. In two sentences you describe PF as falling "hard" and you describe PF2E's position as "solid". You don't have any basis for either of those completely qualitative words, but it is how you filter the limited data. The fact remains that...

So answer honestly... :) When you started this thread on 8/1/19 talking about "beating out the 5E Monster Manual handily", did you anticipate typing this post a few months later?

But you can't say "being #2 behind D&D is awesome" and also say "WotC is not the bar anymore". If it is that meaningless of a comparison, it doesn't provide anything positive anymore than it says anything negative. So the questions become: How is it doing compared to how PF was doing right...

Noted. Do you think Paizo's goals were something to the effect of: within 6 months be selling less Core books than WotC sells modules from 2014?

Quick clarification: I still think that there are a lot more differences. Jester David's comment struck me as keying into the heavy gamist play and balance focus. I'm not even sure he meant that. But that is where my mind went.

I truly believe this is a "squeaky wheel" thing. I don't for a second dispute that a lot of people complained about the min/max aspects of 3X/PF. But I am convinced that the people complaining about that were a much smaller portion of the fanbase than those who just quietly worked with the...

I only take issue with the word "his". Not that mine are not. They are. But the entire call and response is a recycle.

No, not really. I think there are some points that can be made in that two out of two times the very sim based 3X core was replaced by a very tightly math/balance gamist core. But there are still so many differences that I don't think it makes sense to equate the two games. There is a...

Yep. Starts very similar, develops very similar, will continue to track very similar, will end pretty similar.

You may or may not be right. I certainly think that you have some valid points and the overall issue is very complex. But I'm not even suggesting "reach the same level as PF1". Obviously I agree. But a couple points. If every single PF1 group made the switch and nothing else then that...

You strongly implied that my positions were invalid because I wanted to see PF2E fail (not true in itself), not because anything I said was wrong. Go look up ad hominem, And, yet again, you get my position wrong. Go read what I said. I never once claimed that the current sales on Amazon were...

I didn't say fail. I asked if you had any evidence of growth. You have not shown any. You are referencing things I have said, and yet you are misrepresenting me. I have said that it is not growing. I have said that it is not achieving the marketshare or fanbase that the successor to PF...