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It seems you aren't even trying to make a cogent argument. Are you denying that 5E is diverse? (please, go ahead and say yes) Ad popular is one thing, but demonstrating a meaningful connection that maintains critical context here is a failure on your point. Just looking up "logical...

Actually... let me go back to this. CLEARLY, we disagree. Question: Should 4E have changed to be inclusive toward having positions counter to your own represented or are you a gatekeeper standing opposed to other points of view?

Saying this doesn't make it true. And, quite simply, it is entirely false. You failed to demonstrate your point. If you don't care about popularity personally, then cool. In that case you should have no concern over what anyone else said. You play your game and enjoy it. It is clearly...

Well, I meant a rebound in PF, not PF2E. I completely agree that PF2E is crushing EVERY game that is not 5E. It isn't doing as well as 4E was at this stage, and IMO, the trends are looking the same. So I have my opinions on the future. But that will come and I'll be right or I'll eb wrong and...

Yeah, if onyl there had been people who wanted more simulationist play and these arguments were being rejected by 4E fans. If only there were people who complained about self healing fighters and their positions being rejected by 4E fans. If onyl there were people who complained about all high...

I said over and over during 4E that WotC really needed to be throwing a bigger net. Thsi just made 4E fans mad. So here we agree.

That is true. Having a diverse fan base is a major boon. But "splitting" the fanbase generally (and very much in this instance) implies that only a portion was retained as "fans". That is not diversification of existing "fans", only of the set which was once, in the past, collectively "fans".

I suspect you are into "long tail" territory and 8192 on top of 4871 isn't a big bump. Edit:And, again, we know that PF1E has dropped off some time ago. Maybe, just maybe, PF2E has created a small rebound. But even if so it doesn't seem like it would have any chance of sustainability.

This is word games and misdirection, nothing more. I didn't say it did things to "them" I said it did things to the fanbase. Or, more accurately, I referenced WOTC making this statement/ Nothing of any relevance. Apathy and dissatifaction with the game as the best choice amongst options did...

There are plenty of good references in this thread that acknowledge that 4E did bad things to the D&D fanbase. But you seem to be failing to make a distinction between someone like me who was happy to be vocal with exactly what I found wrong with 4E and people who just didn't want to play it...

Nope. It might be true that there was a "vocal minority" complaining. (though leaping from expressing critical comments to the caustic claim of "committed to ruining the game for others" is just chuckle-worthy) But it was the silent majority (substantial majority) of those who didn't bother...

No, PF2 came out because PF1 had reached the end of the line. But, who knows, check with me again in two years.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

People kept talking about 3E after 4E came out, and that went pretty well. :)

There is no question that 4E found distinct ways to alienate a lot of "special interest gamers". And I don't see any way to quantify by irritation subtopic. So, sure. But, people who did adopt 4E burned out on it. And I think that was because the flaws in the "fixed math" foundation become...

I think the Xmas jump was exactly that. The very recent suddenly spike on PF2 followed by an equally rapid fall is consistent with the model described previously. If we assume that the number is somewhere in the 1 to 2 dozen a day range and someone somewhere bought 150 copies for a promotion...

And 24 hours later it is back under 4500. I really don't think all this means anything other than to imply that the method described recently upthread is more or less accurate (if not completely accurate). A big slug of sales (one would assume for some common end) spiked the place and that...

Right. I didn't say anything contrary to this. I do recall some who hoped that this was going to generate a second look from those who did not like 4E, and argued that it addressed concerns. Those are the people I meant in my agreement to course correction. But, I agree with you. As I saw...

15 to 18 books every single day is a respectable pace (Edit: understood that this is a pretty rough guestimate).

I said that "others saw it as". :) :) I 100% agree with you on what really happened. But this was more about perception. And I was being soft with my choice of words. :)