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I'm not interested in a debate about this with you, Umbran. The thread will develop as it does, and readers can judge for themselves the usefulness of drifting the OP and whether any "edifying" techniques come out of this.

My point was more that @Lanefan 's post is an example of "What about-ism" or shifting the focus of the conversation away from the OP's topic of inquiry into yet another derailing of conversation that will inevitably get bogged down in fights over definitions, what terms are permissible in this...

It's possible in Blades in the Dark, but it's not usually a starting Playbook.

I wasn't aware we were limiting discussion here on EN World, a niche website frequented by a minority of players of this already-niche hobby, to "truly casual players." I don't think it's inaccurate to say that what Baker writes, and the games he designs, is targeted to passionate audiences...

Sure, I agree the emphasis in both passages is on technique and mindset (one might say principles and agenda) over mechanics. The more recent passage, however, doesn't have a lot to say about the GM, whereas it does address the players of PCs in narrativist play rather directly.

Just to be sure (tho I think I understand your position well from many previous conversations): what you're saying is that Baker articulates how vital players driving the various elements is for narrativist play, whereas many who seem to misunderstand such play place all the onus upon the GM (in...

And just as interesting how people continue to misunderstand what Baker is saying as a consequence of being unable to shed their prior (mis)conceptions!

I think this creates real problems in the hobby and it accounts for why we see seemingly erroneous understandings of certain games (particularly narrativist ones like DW and especially BitD) presented on these boards and elsewhere: some players don't treat a game and its rules as a discrete set...

The point of analysis is, among other things, to explore unconscious biases, preconceptions, and so on at work in play. "Owning up to it" (in my understanding of @hawkeyefan's usage) is asking for engagement in the process of analysis, and not simply regurgitating unexamined platitudes like...

I think the thing you're missing here, perhaps unconsciously, is that D&D (let's call it 5E for clarity) doesn't have set processes and principles to guide the GM through these judgments. Ironsworn, Dungeon World, etc do. That's a big heaping difference!

In 4E D&D, especially with the digital tools and reskinning, one can very easily do this on the fly. Hmm ... maybe that's another reason 4E is disdained by many trad players: it doesn't require such frontoaded work!

This game is temporarily on hold while we, the players, try to play catch up with real world concerns. Hopefully, to be continued!

In support of what @Campbell says immediately above, I invite you to check out the Play-by-Post game run by @Manbearcat for me and @Nephis. Everything that is "predetermined" about the setting and characters of that game is in that initial post, hashed out over the course of less than a half...

Except when you write "objective setting," you actually mean subjective decisions by the GM.

Last I checked, and for the half century of mainstream RPG history, these things have been called role-playing games, not role-playing storytelling exercises, for a reason.

Why do you see this as a disconnect between player & character? The player is hoping for a positive outcome from AP. The character, in setting the AP to free their mind for other tasks that might result in a positive outcome, seeks the same thing. When I see criticism like this, I think of a...

How does "do what I think the NPC would do in the situation" or "consider what components of a scene seem realistic" or similar judgment without additional guidance in the form of articulated principles and goals of play help others replicate your mode of play? Several times you have been asked...

But it doesn't seem like you are using any robust analysis in this argument, which seems to rest on the rhetoric of falling back upon vagaries disguised by your claims of natural language. What, beyond revealing what is written in the GM's notes, does your toolbox of exploration analysis reveal...

Absolutely! And for this reason I encourage those who have an investment in a new iteration of the game to sign up and get involved through playtesting, feedback, and so on. Even just joining the Discord and directly communicating there with the designers is a useful way to communicate community...

I'm reserving judgment until the game is finished, when we have an integrated whole and see how the final iterations of these design choices fit into that whole.