D&D 5E “What if…” (combat idea)

[Bill Zebub]

I didn’t post this in the 5.5 forum because there is, of course, no way this would ever make it into One. Heck it’s not even D&D so maybe I should post in TTRPG General?

Anyway, imagine if all creatures had TWO defensive values: an Armor Class and a “Dodge Class.” Attacks are either Str based against the target’s AC, or Dex based against its DC. PCs and some NPCs/monsters could choose which attack mode, and other NPCs/monsters would only have one mode. No finesse weapons, but Heavy weapons can only target AC.

And further, some monsters might have special vulnerabilities against one form or the other.

Sooo….?

(I’m sure there have been RPGs that have done this I just know any.)

 

[GMMichael]

XP for not trying to influence WotC. They're probably not listening.

The question, as phrased, sounds to me like "why don't creatures have two defense values: AC and reflex save/save versus spell?"

Well, they do.

But if you were going for: "why aren't there two kinds of attacks: strength and dexterity," I have to ask, "what are you modeling?" What does it mean to "attack vs. armor" or "attack vs. parry?" The answers to these questions might clear up the issue.

To me, every attack is versus armor AND parry, so to target only one of those is to make only half of an attack. Sometimes your opponent has no armor. Sometimes your opponent can't/doesn't parry. These are good reasons to cause damage; not reasons to have two different types of attacks.

 

[Umbran]

To me, every attack is versus armor AND parry...

At least for weapon attacks, yeah. The attacker does not get to choose what defense you get to use. If I am quick, I should be able to dodge out of the way of a brute-force two-handed sword swing, and such.

Now, what gets closes to this in D&D history is... AC vs Weapon type. shudder

 

[Bill Zebub]

I have to ask, "what are you modeling?" What does it mean to "attack vs. armor" or "attack vs. parry?" The answers to these questions might clear up the issue.

I'm not modeling anything. That would suggest a simulationist approach. This is purely gamist, with two design goals:
1. Make it less compelling to dump Dex with a Str build, or dump Str with a Dex build
2. Create another meaningful decision point during combat

This is a player decision, not a character decision. Although I suppose there's some correlation to the fiction in the sense of the character choosing to try to punch through armor vs. aiming for the soft spots.

 

[Minigiant]

But wouldn't a creature attempt dodge heavy attacks and parry/tank light attacks?

It would be Heavy vs Dodge and Light vs Armor.

At least for weapon attacks, yeah. The attacker does not get to choose what defense you get to use. If I am quick, I should be able to dodge out of the way of a brute-force two-handed sword swing, and such.

Now, what gets closes to this in D&D history is... AC vs Weapon type. shudder

it does make sense that the defender getting to chose which defense they want to use.

Weapon Type vs AC then becomes the slog that drags the game down.

I've only see this work in systems where the defender choose a Defense mode to be always on (Block/Dodge/Parry} and the attacker get a damage bonus against one of them (Heavy beat Parry). Mostly in spacebattle games (Armor/Shields/PointDefense Guns tear up shields. Laser melt armor)

 

[Clint_L]

I guess my question would be, "what does this add to make the game more entertaining?" Because it adds more complexity to combat, which is already a time suck, but doesn't seem to really change gameplay much. I'm not seeing what would make the game more fun.

 

[Knorrrssk]

Well, that was one of the great things about 4e; you had defences besides AC (Ref, Fort, Will) and attacks could target those.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think heavy weapons (and crossbows) should target Dodge:
No matter how many layers of steel you have on you, that huge ass cleaver is punching through. You need to dodge it.

Remove medium armors and go back to 4e armors.
Have to type of Armor Class: Soak and Dodge.

Soak AC would be: 10+ Armor
Dodge AC would be 10+Dex+Shield

Heavy Armors only give Soak Armor (fka regular AC)
Light Armors give minimal Soak but allow you to add Dex or Int to Dodge AC.

Combatants have the choice to enter 2 stances as BA: Precision Attacks vs Dodge (using Dex) or Heavy Attacks (using STR).

Heavy weapons can only target Dodge AC and light weapons can only target Soak AC.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

For some reason, the rules around travel in the Astral Plane popped into my head while reading the OP and responses.

DMG pg 46: a creature's walking speed (in feet) is equal to 3 × its Intelligence score.

The parallel being: depending on the situation/equipment/enemy, you need to use a different ability score to make your attack.

Does that simplify the concept and/or make it more flexible? Or is that muddling the premise?

 

[Stormonu]

Reminds me of 3E's touch AC. I was just lamenting yesterday I missed that for things like grappling, shoving, pushing or other combat manuevers that didn't depend on caving the enemy's head in, but only making contact.