1/4 million dollar fine for bootlegging d+d books?

And might I add that while every download does not signify an oppurtunity cost, the price for pirated goods is typically understated as a result of this type of violation, because those who pirate are effectivly taken out of the market, and thus their willingness to pay is not included in demand calculations. There can be no doubt that there is a significant aggregate cost to these types of activities, esepcially in brand-oriented markets.
 
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The Sigil said:

In the year 3,000 historians are going to want to write about the last turn of the millenium... and because copyright laws have been extended so many times, Steamboat Willie will STILL be under copyright. In fact, everything ever written by anyone anytime anywhere since about 1923 will still be in copyright. And of course, the original copyright holders will be long dead, and tracing the rightful copyright holder (the "heir") will be literally impossible.

There are two major and one minor problem with that, Sigil.

Firstly, scholoary research already has a Fair Use exemption. If I want to write a piece on the history of cartoons, I don't need to pay Disney or get their permission to mention, describe, or even sample Steamboat Willie.

Secondly, most copyright violations are torts, not crimes. If the copyright holder never comes up and punishes the offender, then no foul can be called. As for criminal copyright, a reasonable search for the copyright holder followed by holding the equivalent royalty payments in escrow would probably help proof against criminal behavior. (If the copyright holder ever does surface, they can just demand the ceasation of the printing and get their money.)

Thirdly and minorly, copyright won't get extended to an unlimited term. While a tangential case for twice the mean lifespan of the author could be made*, there's not enough political support to extend copyright so long that people the author never knew or met could inherit the copyright.

*: The author already has their lifespan, and being able to pass the work on to their spouse or children is a clearly moral law.
 

MeepoTheMighty said:
Copyright was originally intended to protect *artists.* It wasn't designed to protect multinational conglomerates who exploit said artists. It certainly wasn't designed so that Mickey Mouse could stay out of the public domain for the next seven hundred years.
I disagree.

Copyright was originally intended to "promote the useful arts and sciences" by enriching the public domain.

The thought is that most human beings - including artists - are selfish bastards.

Because they are selfish bastards like the rest of us, artists will not create works unless they can benefit from the blood, sweat and tears they pour into it.

That is not WRONG, by the way... all of us feel that it is "right" for us to gain benefit from our blood, sweat, and tears.

The problem is, it's much easier to take the fruits of an artist's blood, sweat and tears with no compensation (because of the non-exclusive, non-impoverishing nature of "Intellectual Property") than it is to take the fruits of a laborer's blood sweat and tears... and because other humans are greedy bastards, too, they'll be inclined to take the fruit of the artist's blood, sweat and tears without compensating the artist.

A sense of enlightened self interest tells me that if I grant the artist an "Artificial Legal Monopoly" on the use of his ideas for a limited time, that allows him to be compensated for his blood, sweat, and tears... appealing to his greedy bastard side, while incenting him to create stuff I can later copy for free when a (short) copyright runs out... appealing to MY greedy bastard side.

The problem is, we have corporations which live forever, so tying the time limit to lifespan is ineffective. We have corporations which, as an aggregate of human beings (shareholders) are FAR more greedy bastards than any individual might be... and now we are in a situation where the individual's "greedy bastard side" has been bludgeoned to death in favor of the corporation's "greedy bastard side."

We shouldn't cheer for NO COPYRIGHT, because then the "greedy bastards" that aren't artists win. We shouldn't cheer for PERPETUAL COPYRIGHT, because then the "Greeedy Bastards" that are artists (or employ them for hire) win. Either way, a Greedy Bastard" wins

We want neither greedy bastard to win outright... we want both greedy bastards to be a little disappointment. The premise of copyright is both greedy bastards get some of what they want and get much less than all of what they want... which is a "just compromise."

--The Sigil
 

Planesdragon said:
There are two major and one minor problem with that, Sigil.

Firstly, scholoary research already has a Fair Use exemption. If I want to write a piece on the history of cartoons, I don't need to pay Disney or get their permission to mention, describe, or even sample Steamboat Willie.
Yes and no. In theory, yes, in practice, no.

Here is what Disney and every other media conglomerate wants...

Put all copies of Steamboat Willie into a format that is protected by Digital Rights Management.

Now, even if SW passes into the public domain, if you try to sample a portion of Steamboat Willy and incorporate it elsewhere, you must bypass their DRM scheme to do so.

That is a direct violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. You are committing a felony.

Thus, the public domain is DE FACTO and DE JURE eliminated... because nothing in the can be accessed without the DRM manager's permission... including public domain works.

Let me repeat that:

DRM + DMCA = De Facto Cessation of Public Domain

Secondly, most copyright violations are torts, not crimes. If the copyright holder never comes up and punishes the offender, then no foul can be called. As for criminal copyright, a reasonable search for the copyright holder followed by holding the equivalent royalty payments in escrow would probably help proof against criminal behavior. (If the copyright holder ever does surface, they can just demand the ceasation of the printing and get their money.)
In theory, yes. In practice... not any more. Copyright violation is a now a criminal felony, unless I am mistaken.

The Department of Justice has a copyright infringement contingent of lawyers. The FBI investigates alleged copyright infringement. These are CRIMINAL LAW ENFORCEMENT agencies, not CIVIL LAW enforcement agencies.

Thirdly and minorly, copyright won't get extended to an unlimited term. While a tangential case for twice the mean lifespan of the author could be made*, there's not enough political support to extend copyright so long that people the author never knew or met could inherit the copyright.
Really? Senators Sonny Bono and now his widow, Mary(?) Bono support/supported copyright terms to infinity... when told the Constitution forbids this, her response was "okay, well, infinity less one day, then."

There's not enough political support? Extending copyright terms 7 times in the last couple of decades is not enough political support?

Please tell me you're joking.
*: The author already has their lifespan, and being able to pass the work on to their spouse or children is a clearly moral law.
I would argue with this.

Creators of "Intellectual Property" seem to have this funny notion that they should required to expend blood, sweat, and tears once and then be paid the rest of their lives. The rest of us must continue to produce, spending blood sweat, and tears, to continue to get paid. What makes two years (or however long it takes to create their artistic work) of their blood, sweat, and tears worth over 100 years of payments, while the common man expects that one year of his work will pay for one year of his expenses?

In the service industry (e.g., plumbing), a plumber does spend five years fixing pipes, then expect royalties on every toilet flush to keep him in luxury the rest of his days... and his children, and his grandchildren, too. He has to keep fixing things.

In the manufacturing industry, a TV manufacturer cannot sell 1 million TVs, then sit back and collect royalties the rest of his life... and the lives of his children and grandchildren.

Why should IP creators be any different?

This is probably a difference of opinion, and as such I don't expect to convince you one way or the other. I'm merely stating my POV... AS A CREATIVE ARTIST WHO MAKES MONEY FROM HIS WORK.

--The Sigil
 

Items on the plate:

Copyright infringement (increadibly loosely defined from a "traditional" legal standpoint, in this case) will draw a felony charge.

Copyright owners or their representatives will have the legal right to hack into your system and damage your hardware remotely, eliminate files, corrupt your system, or take any other electronic action THEY deem necessary to get you to stop. Note that last part - steps THEY deem necessary.

"Hackers" - including people who copy protected materials for well and truly fair use purposes - could get life sentences. Life. The average murder in the first degree, barring special circumstances, does not receive a life sentence.

I'll respect the Eric's Grandma rule and simply not comment on the above, but this is all stuff in the pipeline, folks, here in the US.
 


The Sigil said:

Now, even if SW passes into the public domain, if you try to sample a portion of Steamboat Willy and incorporate it elsewhere, you must bypass their DRM scheme to do so.

That is a direct violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. You are committing a felony.

Nope. Even a DRM's steamboat willie is subject to the analog hole. While the law isn't clear to me (IANAL-RU, Sigil?), I suspect that a judge would allow me to capture a video feed to make Fair Use commentary. With a good lawyer, I wager that I could even make videotape copies for small distribution, and keep the DMCA off as long as I follow the encryption scheme.

The Sigil said:
In theory, yes. In practice... not any more. Copyright violation is a now a criminal felony, unless I am mistaken.

The Department of Justice has a copyright infringement contingent of lawyers. The FBI investigates alleged copyright infringement. These are CRIMINAL LAW ENFORCEMENT agencies, not CIVIL LAW enforcement agencies.

Copyright violation is a crime, but only when done or "commercial advantage or private financial gain" or with a retail value of at least $1000 within 180 days.

I can still photocopy my PH for my gaming buddy without committing a felony.

Really? Senators Sonny Bono and now his widow, Mary(?) Bono support/supported copyright terms to infinity... when told the Constitution forbids this, her response was "okay, well, infinity less one day, then."

One senator does not the law make. I said that there isn't enough political support--not that the extreme polticans didn't want to change the law to work that way.

This is probably a difference of opinion, and as such I don't expect to convince you one way or the other. I'm merely stating my POV... AS A CREATIVE ARTIST WHO MAKES MONEY FROM HIS WORK.

With regards to law, your status as anything but an American citizen shouldn't have any weight behind it at all.

However, if you're really intersted in a better way to reward artists, check out the following /. journal. I still stand by what I say there, and as soon as I can figure out a good way to implement the system, I'll do it.

http://slashdot.org/~Planesdragon/journal/21368
 

Emiricol said:
Items on the plate:

Copyright infringement (increadibly loosely defined from a "traditional" legal standpoint, in this case) will draw a felony charge.

Criminal copyright infringement is fairly specifically defined. If you do it to make money (apparantly inclduing saving yourself $90 by downloading the three books from KaZaa), or infringe $1000 retail worth in 180 days (i.e., make eleven copies of all three books in 6 months), you're committing cirminal copyright infringement.

As for the other proposed bills--the counter-hacking bill is, AFAIK, dead in the water, and I'd like a senator or bill number on the "all 'hackers' get life sentences" bill. :)

Oh, and don't forget to write your congressfolk. You've got at least three of them, so be sure to write them all.
 

Planesdragon said:


Criminal copyright infringement is fairly specifically defined.

That's why I said "traditionally". The standards are however changing, largely due to such things as the DMCA.

On the other matter, do a google on "life sentence" +hacker or similar search at ZDNet and you will find it, if you care to look.
 

jasamcarl said:
The fine is reasonable if you think of it as an expected fine. I.E. the probability of getting caught on any average download * the actual restitution that would have to be made.

Unfortunately, that's not how our legal system is supposed to work. I shouldn't pay the penalty for crimes that other people have committed, nor for the crimes that other people speculate that I may, on average, have committed. I pay the penalty for the crimes that I have been proven to have committed. Anything else is a gross and unconstitutional miscarriage of justice.
 

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