10 years was too long.

Wraith Form said:
Oh, I'm not saying that I dislike the hardcover format; I just note that other publishers (Fantasy Flight & Sword & Sorcery come to mind) release hardcovers for $20 - $25.
Well... compare say a FFG hardcover to a WotC hardcover. Ignoring the internal quality of the books, compare the physical quality of the books. WotC has color artwork and the books are much sturdier and better made.

Now, not everyone will actually care about that fact, but I'd bet that that is where the price difference comes from.
 

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Consider the Player's Option books for 2e as a new edition of the rules in its own right, and when 3e was anounded I was really hoping that the core rules would have included all the player's option books in the main rules and that would have been a fine 3e for me... what we got went way beyond my expectations, and I'm sure many other peoples expectations of D&D 3rd edition, and I'm not complaining too much about it.

But, I don't think 10 years is too long, IF the game doesn't need it till then. In the case of AD&D 2e and with the eventual release of the Player's Option books, it really did need a 3e, badly. IMHO of course.

As for the eventual 4e...I don't care when it comes out as long as it's an improvement. And with all the 3rd party books in the last four years, it will be hard for WotC to really improve the game without a drastic overhaul the likes we saw between 2e and 3e. There's just too much to compare now, especially since we see 3rd party publishers putting out better books than WotC, with more innovative ideas and better writing. (I know that many other books are crap, but those gems are way beyond what WotC puts out nowadays... I'd love to see Green Ronin put out their own core rulesbook for d20/D&D like Malhovac did).
 

The price *is* a major factor. For me anyway. I could live with a revision or new edition every 2-4 years, if there was only one book to buy and it was not considered essential for every player to have a PHB. This isn't true of most games, but running D&D what with all the spells to look up is a major pain without multiple copies. With the cost for a new edition nearly $100, plus $30 for each player that's a lot of cash to be laying out with any regularity.

Ten years was too long for 2e, and indeed my group all but stopped playing. The design of 3e is such that it could IMO easily go a decade or more. I even feel the 3.5 revision was completely irrelevent, and introduced as many problems as it solved. Not to mention the main thing that stopped me from converting, the rewrite of nearly every spell. That renders my player's PHBs useless at a 3.5 game. Too much money.
 

Acid_crash said:
Consider the Player's Option books for 2e as a new edition of the rules in its own right, and when 3e was anounded I was really hoping that the core rules would have included all the player's option books in the main rules and that would have been a fine 3e for me... what we got went way beyond my expectations, and I'm sure many other peoples expectations of D&D 3rd edition, and I'm not complaining too much about it.

Player's Option would have been AD&D 2.5 if the modern revisionist ideas were around back then.

I would actually prefer a cohesive versioning system. Major version (currently 3) would be incremented whenever forwards compatibility was removed. This means that the new rules could either make a current character obsolete and there is no direct path up upgrade. The 3.5 rules might be said to do this with the Ranger class, except that the 3e Ranger can be easily used in a 3.5 game, and can be updated to work directly in 3.5.

Minor versions (current is 5) should incremenet by 1 each time (as opposed to jumping to .5) would represent backwards-compatibility breaks. Two games that share the same minor version should be totally compatible without any conversion. Going from 3 to 3.5, for instance, requires that several things be updated, like two-weapon fighting feats, certain classes or class abilities, particular spells, face/reach, certain skills are no longer used, etc. All of these things are easily convertable, but do have to be converted between the two systems. Since conversion is necessary, a minor version change is in order.

On the other hand, errata such as that found in the FAQs (for instance a clarification or a mild balancing of rules) could result in a revision number (so we'd be on 3.5.1 or whatever). Whenever a new print run is issued, if anything has been introduced, even grammatical mistakes, the revision number should be incremented.

Each book should also have as extensive a changelog as is possible, indicating the changes since the last revision and the changes since the last minor version. This could also include an upgrade guide when necessary (i.e., when converting a Ranger from a d10 class to a d8 class, simply subtract 1 hp from the character's total for each class level).

I would also suggest pulling an idea from a lot of GPL projects where they use odd and even to indicate stability (for minor version only). In RPG terms, this could indicate whether the new rules have gone through extensive, out-of-house playtesting. If it hasn't, then assign an odd number, if it has, then assign an even number.

Another good indication of whether a change is a revision or a minor version change is how the RPGA has to handle it. Revisions should be able to be played either way, even both ways in the same game. A minor version should be a required upgrade. Indicating what version a game or product is using can be a succint way of expressing which errata has made it into said game or product.

Supplements should be versioned based on which core game the supplement is assuming.

This information should be located on the title page of the book. You could also indicate a range of version (3.5.0-3.5.4) to indicate that no rules changes in those versions would have any affect on the material in the book.

This is another one of those things that I think our dollars should be spent on if Wizards expects us to continue to drop money into the same game. It goes hand-in-hand with my ideas of Wizards providing us with better organization and integration of their products.

They should begin doing something to improve the current edition before they even think about beginning on another.
 

Wraith Form said:
I absolutely do NOT dispute, Saeviomagy, that there is no noticeable difference in the contents of the CoC book for the past 7 or 8 years now; they've just made it prettier or shuffled a few things around.

Call me nuts, but I'd rather pay $90 for 3 books if they're a genuine revision with an appreciable quantity of new material than $30 for a book I already have.
 

A revision should only come along if it is needed. You can only tweek a game so far before it is no longer the game it started out to be. D&D is gotten to be about as good as I think it can get and still be D&D.

Thanks
 

Saeviomagy said:
Call me nuts, but I'd rather pay $90 for 3 books if they're a genuine revision with an appreciable quantity of new material than $30 for a book I already have.

Indeed. I quite agree.

However, it is worth considering more incremental revisions as non-necessary for existing customers, but being very, very good for new customers. (AD&D 1e really needed that - some of the explanations of the rules were very daunting for new players).

Has there really been so many changes in 3.5e that new 3.5e supplements are unusable with 3e? I more mean "new" supplements such as Frostburn, incidentally.

3.5e was probably more changes than I'd prefer to see in a new "edition" of the game, assuming the incremental scheme was used.

Cheers!
 

Mythtify said:
A revision should only come along if it is needed. You can only tweek a game so far before it is no longer the game it started out to be. D&D is gotten to be about as good as I think it can get and still be D&D.

Turn Undead
Metamagic

Cheers!
 


I had no problem with the length of time between 1st and 2nd Edition and between 2nd and 3rd edition. The years just seemed to fly by . . . (maybe it was my young age and I didn't care about new editions).

That said, I find myself itching for 4th edition!

Why?

Well, I think because 3E is so numbers heavy and obsessive about balance that if there's a glitch, then the whole thing comes toppling down. I encounter glitches in my 3E game all the time and they bug me to bits. In previous editions, if there was a glitch (and there were many!), you could tend to ignore them because they didn't screw up the whole too much.

So, I'm looking forward to an even better version of D&D. And don't get me wrong, 3E is a vast improvement, it's just that it seems so hyper-sentive in the crunch department. Indeed, is it possible to have a better version of D&D without so much crunch?
 

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