$125,000 in fines for D&D pirates? Help me do the math...

[Korgoth]

Uh oh. Not sure how to say this but that was me in a Wizards of the Coast mask.

Awkward.

I heard that dog was lame anyway. You did him a favor.

Wik, have you heard about the [myfavoritebreedhere]? They're totally awesome and way better than your old dog. You can get one for low three figures online, not including vet fees and shipping of course. You'll never look back! I mean, unless you have mutt nostalgia or something.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm breaking my self-imposed vow to avoid piracy threads (due to my blood pressure) to address this one:

Before you decry the settlement, check the law about the penalties that are possible.

U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright Law: Chapter 5

The copyright holder has a choice of remedies including 1) actual damages & recovery of lost profits, 2) statutory damages ($750-30,000 per infringement- yes, this is meant to be punitive and a warning to others), 3) forfeiture and destruction, 4) a flat $150,000, 5) costs & attorney fees (so that even low-income IP owners can afford to sue), 6) injunctions. If the infringement was deemed to be a "Criminal Infringement"- you can get jail time up to 5 years AND a fine of up to $250k.

By the description, its possible that these people were chargeable with criminal copyright infringement. Its also possible that WotC was asking either for the flat fee or statutory damages rather than lost profits.

So settling for 125k is probably a pretty good deal.

Fair? Yep.

A certain subset of people don't seem to see or care that piracy is an attack on the geese that lay golden eggs.

Me? I have to represent people who see people downloading their stuff while they're trying to support their families with 2 minimum-wage jobs, possibly facing financial disaster when they can't repay the loan that let them record their album or write their book when pirated copies outsell legit ones.

 

[haakon1]

Thus, it is deliberately set very high, so as to send a message and discourage other people from pirating.
. . .
Sorta like punishing one to warn a hundred.

Isn't the cruel and unusual punishment? I thought that the US Bill of Rights decided that British and French colonial "justice" ideas like collective punishment, torture to get confessions, and grabbing someone from a crowd to string him up "as an example to the others" weren't things we were going to do, once we ran the place?

So I think your logic is wrong. I don't disagree with this particular court decision. And as I understand it, it's a civil action (Hasbro v. Joe Pirate), not a criminal action (State of Washington v. Joe Pirate), so I really doubt "un exemple por les autres" was the the point, legally speaking.

But I do have a question. Are these people really expected to pay up? I assume they are some pimply kids who live in their mom's basement, and distributed their "warez" for free. So, do they really have $125,000 to write a check, or will they be docked their salaries for life, or will they just declare bankruptcy and move on?

We need JoeTheLawyer to explain it all to us!

 

[haakon1]

yes, this is meant to be punitive and a warning to others

You sound like an attorney, so I've got to call this out. Punitive, sure. But "a warning to others". Really? Is that an official legal concept in the US? Sounds unconstitutional to me, as I just said a minute ago in another post.

I don't see how this is out of line at all.

Nod, sounds like do the crime, do the time to me. Not "an example", but punishment for what they actually did.

Whether it's "harsh" or "punitive" punishment, I dunno. But it is, apparently, what the law provides for, and if I were WOTC, I think I'd go with the Macy's policy: we prosecute to the full extent of the law.

I guess WOTC could have settled for less, but from their POV, it probably was firing a shot across the pirate's bows.

I'm just saying, from a legal perspective, it was just deserts, not "making an example". I think . . . not a lawyer, just an old poli sci /history major who was never all that interested in US politics.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm glad WotC stood up to these pirates and taught them an expensive lesson. I hope we see even more of this from WotC and other publishers and industries in the future. There are too many spoiled folks with a warped sense of entitlement, and it's nice to see some of them get punished.

Bravo, WotC!

I agree (does the happy dance)

I am guessing the sum is meant to set a warning

yes...and I like that warning...If you break the law (even if you and a thousand others think it is a dumb law) you have to be punished... I so often see people 'getting away with it' that I love hearing about people getting boned for doing eaither illigal or imoral things...

It's the same thing here. WotC isn't losing money because no sales would have been made if the pirated materials weren't available. They are assuming sales where there would be none to justify the fines, just like any other "pirating" issue.

Ok, BUT the piarate knowingly broke the law, knowing they risked X for Y...they got cought and have to pay...

Go WotC! This is the settlement, so both parties agreed to this. I see nothing wrong with that. We have no idea how the number was reached one side could have compromised to the other.

I assume any sane lawyer told the pirates "Bend over they are about to..." well you know. So it wasn't much of a compramize....


And again today I feel that the world is a little happier and shiner becuse some people play by all the rules and some people break some or all of said rules, and in this world there are so many examples of people getting away with breaking them that it makes it hard to explain why we are suppose to follow the rules...this is punishment for crime...so I decliar a very small victory in a world so over full of losses...

 

[Cadfan]

You sound like an attorney, so I've got to call this out. Punitive, sure. But "a warning to others". Really? Is that an official legal concept in the US? Sounds unconstitutional to me, as I just said a minute ago in another post.

Its not really relevant here. This was a settlement. No one sat down and decided that this settlement award would serve as "a warning to others," because no legal authority sat down and decided the settlement award at all. The parties did it on their own.

Mind you, they did so against a backdrop of the law regarding IP infringement, which happens to include statutory and punitive damages. These damages have a lot of purposes, including deterrence, but they're not personalized to the individual defendant. So somewhere the legislature sat down and decided that the penalties for infringement ought to be a particular way, and they did so with the intent of making punishments for infringement sufficient to deter infringement. Which is a fancy way of saying that they wanted the punishment for infringement to serve as a warning to other possible infringers.

But that doesn't mean that these specific people were singled out for greater punishment in order to terrorize others into compliance with the law. They were sued under the same laws, with the same possible punishments, as you or I could be if we did what they did.

 

[Marshall]

One side being willing to spend $8000 in legal fees and the other side being some college student or insurance adjuster who games on the weekend is not quite like a mugging, but it's not much like a polite conversation, either.

I find it ironic/disturbing/darkly humorous that companies like to talk about about IP "theft," but at the end of the day, the lawsuit is the weapon of choice.

You're right on this point. This isnt a civil litigation issue, it should be handled by the criminal courts. WotC is asserting a CRIME has been commited here, their lawyers are not the ones that should be involved. Other than in suing the DAs that are failing to prosecute.

 

[ggroy]

But I do have a question. Are these people really expected to pay up? I assume they are some pimply kids who live in their mom's basement, and distributed their "warez" for free. So, do they really have $125,000 to write a check, or will they be docked their salaries for life, or will they just declare bankruptcy and move on?

I knew of one person who did something like this, where this person was already in over their heads in heavy debt from other stuff like credit cards, defaulted mortgage, behind on car payments, etc ... Turns out the out-of-court settlements they agreed to pay the other parties, was an unsecured debt. (Apparently the other parties neglected to check this person's credit and outstanding debts).

When this person finally filed for chapter 7 bankruptcy (ie. liquidation), they essentially had very little of value. Besides the house being foreclosed and the car being repo, the only other assets was largely useless junk like several VCRs and dvd players which didn't function properly anymore, a dying plasma TV, furniture, a library of paperbacks (ie. Star Trek, Star Wars, Stephen King, etc ... novels), and other random useless crap like old computers collecting dust in the closet, 10 year old college textbooks, several music cds, etc ...

For somebody who owns very little of value and were completely in over the heads with tons of heavy debt, they had nothing to lose by filing for chapter 7 bankruptcy. All the out-of-court settlement debts, were expunged along with all their other debts.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You sound like an attorney, so I've got to call this out. Punitive, sure. But "a warning to others". Really? Is that an official legal concept in the US? Sounds unconstitutional to me, as I just said a minute ago in another post.

In any legal system, the drafting of laws includes consideration of their value as a deterrent.

So no- "a warning to others" is not unconstitutional.

 

[Shemeska]

And absolutely nothing has changed w/ regards to filesharing. I'd put money that WotC probably encouraged it more by their reaction here, and more-so their stance on PDFs.