15 Minute Adventuring Day

[Abraxas]

This is aggravated by the fact that unless the attack targets your strongest defense (and then even in spite of it some times) we never seem to get missed by attacks.

A big problem which can easily occur is if the DM or players neglect defences. If the DM does not constantly give players the ability to upgrade defensive items, or if players do not make sure to upgrade their defenses, it is very easy to fall behind the attack bonuses of the monsters.

On, ending the fight early, I suggest taking a look at a post from Three Examples for Ending a Battle Early | Sly Flourish

Well, I have been pretty mindful of improving my characters defenses. Level 25 Rogue with AC:39, Fort:40, Ref:43, Will:41 - and it seems to be really rare for him to be missed by an attack - I have been more successful in trying to find ways to just not be the target of the attack. However, this doesn't help with the ever present auras that don't require attack rolls to screw us up. We play this saturday - I'm going to take note of how many attacks actually miss my character.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

AC 39 at level 25 is equal to AC 15 on level 1... not that good. An equal level monster hits you at 9. Defenses of 40/43 and 41 are a lot better: a monster hits you at 12/15 and 13.
The problem that trivialized defenses before MM3 math is using Monsters of some levels higher. If you face monsters some levels lower these days, you may suddenly see that your focus on defense pays off.

The low level thing is a problem however. One problem simply solved by introducing a 0th level for monsters.

 

[Abraxas]

AC 39 at level 25 is equal to AC 15 on level 1... not that good. An equal level monster hits you at 9. Defenses of 40/43 and 41 are a lot better: a monster hits you at 12/15 and 13.
The problem that trivialized defenses before MM3 math is using Monsters of some levels higher. If you face monsters some levels lower these days, you may suddenly see that your focus on defense pays off.

The low level thing is a problem however. One problem simply solved by introducing a 0th level for monsters.

Well, like I said, I'm going to record how many times the PC gets missed. It sure seems like the PC never gets missed from anything but an attack directed at the Reflex Defense. Plus, other than getting a +6 neck slot item I can't get that Will defense up any higher. Right now the character has the following bonuses +12 one-half level, +1 Race, +3 stat, +5 Item, +4 Superior Will, +4 Epic Will, +2 unnamed bonus - spending 2 feats for each NAD seems a bit steep - especially if it really doesn't help that much (or at least appear to in actual play).

 

[Riastlin]

Well, like I said, I'm going to record how many times the PC gets missed. It sure seems like the PC never gets missed from anything but an attack directed at the Reflex Defense. Plus, other than getting a +6 neck slot item I can't get that Will defense up any higher. Right now the character has the following bonuses +12 one-half level, +1 Race, +3 stat, +5 Item, +4 Superior Will, +4 Epic Will, +2 unnamed bonus - spending 2 feats for each NAD seems a bit steep - especially if it really doesn't help that much (or at least appear to in actual play).

The other thing to do as well is, assuming your DM tells you the actual roll (i.e. "does 40 hit your AC?") record how close the hit was. If you are hit by one a lot then upping your defense should help. If the DM is simply throwing level 28 or 29 monsters at you (presumably using the old monsters) then, as was stated, it may not matter.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

hmmh... i am not sure probability works that way...

it is more important to know, how many hits from how many attempts.

If you are only hit 20% of the time, +2 defenses efficently makes your effective hp twice as high. In a team fight however, this is only important if you receive a lot of attacks.

If you are hit by some attacks only, each +1 bonus reduces your chance to be hit by 5%.

It is only when the number of attacks are high, that the EV plays a role..., for single events, 5% are 5%

Edit: and don´t buy the "Defender AC may not be too high" thing. If the punishing mechanic is penalizing enough, high is your only chance to survive!

 

[MrBeens]

The symptom of a 15 work day is something that was apparent in 2nd edition already. Our DM just told us we are not tired back then. Problem solved.

You just can´t rest. As long as there is any resource that does not come back after each combat you have 15 min work days if you want.

And i don´t call 4 encounters 15 min workday. It is actually quite a lot. Nearly half a level.

4 encounters max per day doesn't appeal to me. It's fine in open ended adventures but time critical scenarios or large dungeon environement are severly hampered by this.
Our DM has moved over to using the new MM3 numbers and it is horribly brutal - we are averaging 3 encounters before 2 or more characters are out of surges.
2 monsters attacking a striker in the first round can drop him easily, so there is 4 surges gone minimum if the fight is won, which in most cases is half.

I prefer combats to be roughly 6 rounds - gives you a chance to use your encounter powers + a daily + misc (utility, environment interaction etc)

With the new numbers our defender worries if he gets hit, my wizard just collapses

 

[KarinsDad]

Again I'll reiterate that synergy makes you better in certain areas, but generally at a price in others.

...

Actually, I believe I already stated that surgeless healing (and hence the pacifist cleric) was the biggest example of creep in the game. And oh by the way, it was also hit with the nerf bat pretty much across the board.

Let's look at a simple synergy.

Plate mail

Shield

Shield Specialization

+6 Agile Godplate (+3 from Dex)

A PC could acquire this at level 26.

This PC has an AC of +8 Plate +6 magic +6 masterwork +3 Dex +13 half level +2 shield +1 specialization = AC 49 (AC 51 at level 30)

AC 49 at level 26 is the same as AC 24 at level one (18 required to hit via same level foe).

AC 51 at level 30 is the same as AC 22 at level one (16 required to hit via same level foe).

1 or 2 feats (typically) and one specific magic item. That's just a minor synergy.

It's not what I would call paying a heavy price in other areas. A 16 Dex by level 24 is fairly cheap. 13 starting, +2 levels, +1 a single boost to Dex. And, a 16 Dex is desirable (i.e. +3 Reflex, +3 Init) anyway. Did he pay a small price? Sure. A heavy price? Not really.

And there are ways to get this higher. And there are other non-plate builds that can get higher as well.

Now, how exactly could a PC get to AC 51 (or higher) with the core rules? We're talking a single item here outside of core.

 

[Abraxas]

The other thing to do as well is, assuming your DM tells you the actual roll (i.e. "does 40 hit your AC?") record how close the hit was. If you are hit by one a lot then upping your defense should help. If the DM is simply throwing level 28 or 29 monsters at you (presumably using the old monsters) then, as was stated, it may not matter.

I'll make note of this also. As for getting hit by one a lot - the character also has a ring of protection, which allows him to bump one defense up by 2 as an immediate reaction - I hardly ever get to use that - but, again I'll keep track of it.

Sorry for the threadjack KD.

 

[KarinsDad]

spending 2 feats for each NAD seems a bit steep - especially if it really doesn't help that much (or at least appear to in actual play).

Take Improved Defenses. It doesn't stack with your Superior Will, but it does boost the other two NAD defenses by 3.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

4 encounters max per day doesn't appeal to me. It's fine in open ended adventures but time critical scenarios or large dungeon environement are severly hampered by this.
Our DM has moved over to using the new MM3 numbers and it is horribly brutal - we are averaging 3 encounters before 2 or more characters are out of surges.
2 monsters attacking a striker in the first round can drop him easily, so there is 4 surges gone minimum if the fight is won, which in most cases is half.

I prefer combats to be roughly 6 rounds - gives you a chance to use your encounter powers + a daily + misc (utility, environment interaction etc)

With the new numbers our defender worries if he gets hit, my wizard just collapses

If you want more, use lower level encounters. 5 equal level encounters in a day makes no sense for my preferred playstyle.

Oh, and it is just 15 points more a single hit at level 30. So take tougness, problem solved. Ne Damage numbers seem quite ok. And at low levels, goblin sharpshooters from keep of the shadowfell already did terrible amounts of damage.