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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dungeonosophy" data-source="post: 7934410" data-attributes="member: 6688049">Right, you're talking about D&D in general. We have agreed that the "D&D English" term "Bard" encompasses not only the Irish/Welsh/Celtic bard archetype, but also the skald, jongleur, troubadour, rhapsode, and Orpheus, and potential every other musical hero in any mythological tradition (African, East Asian, Amerindian, etc) or in fantasy fiction.We agree there. I was just making the point that instead of "universalizing" the Celtic term "bard", Gygax could've universalized one of those other terms as the class name: Troubadour, Skald, etc, instead of "Bard." And it would've made no difference.So, when translating the a "universal / generic" term into the specifically Ancient Greek language and culture, one would go with the most "universal / generic" term for a "music-playing hero" in Ancient Greece (not Ancient Celtdom). The word "Bard" is of course going to remain the "D&D English" name for the class, even in the Theros setting.But the Greek word vardos is basically a Modern Greek term for a Celtic "bard"; though it did exist in Late Ancient Greek, it likewise only referred to the Celtic barbarian musician-poets who lived north of the Greeks. But the world of Theros, as far as I know, doesn't have a Celtic barbarian analogue. All PCs are going to be "Greek" musician-heroes. So what would that word be in Ancient Greek? And what word is generic enough (but still native Greek, not a later borrowing) to encompass all of the 5E "bardic colleges" (and various instruments and modes of music/art) which are going to be coming into play as Bards in Theros?Your Aiodos ("singer") is quite fitting. My suggestion of Mousikos ("musician") is also fitting. Aiodos was used in Homer. And Orpheus is referred to as a Mousikos. So they both are archetypally Greek terms for a music-playing hero. One would work just as well as the other. WotC would just need to pick one to serve as the iconic / generic Ancient Greek class name. Voila.Exactly. Like I said, D&D class names are "generic / iconic" terms which are no longer closely attached to their real-world source culture. We completely agree.Here's where we run off the tracks. Because I never suggested that the D&D English name for the class be changed to "Musician." That would be silly and pointless. I simply suggested that Mousikos be considered as the Ancient Greek name for the Bard class, for use in the Theros setting (and other D&D Ancient Greek settings.)And we agree that, of the 5E Backgrounds, the Entertainer most closely represents the ordinary musician.In Theros (and other Hellenic Adventures):Entertainer = KallitéchnēsThe 10 Entertainer Routines:actor = ithopoiósdancer = choreutriafire-eater = pyrophagos (among other names: <a href="https://glosbe.com/en/el/fire-eater" target="_blank">fire-eater - translation - English-Greek Dictionary - Glosbe</a> )jester = gelotopoiósjuggler = tachydaktylourgósinstrumentalist = organopaíktēspoet = poiētḗssinger = tragoudistḗsstoryteller = aphēgētḗstumbler = gymnastḗsHere are you offering that the English and Celtic term "bard" has more lofty and multi-disciplinary connotations than the word "musician." I agree. Musician is a generic word in English.Yet in regard to Ancient Greek (the topic at hand), if we look back into the origins of the two suggestions: Aiodos and Mousikos both also have lofty and multi-disciplinary connotations. Aiodos was tied to poetry, music, battle, and sacred history. "Mousikos" is one who inspired by the Muses. And the nine Muses covered nine fields of sacred arts: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muses#Emblems" target="_blank">Muses - Wikipedia</a>It doesn't get more lofty and multi-disciplinary than that. It's simply Ancient Greek loftiness, rather than Celtic or Modern English loftiness.Like I said, in the D&D Worlds, of course there are warriors who aren't Fighters, acolytes and priests who aren't Clerics, wise-folk who aren't Wizards, and musicians who aren't Bards.Though in Celtic-inspired D&D lands, such as the Ffolk of the Moonshaes of FR, and the Kaels and Thratians of Mystara, there may even be 'bards' (i.e. non-magical 0-level poets and musicians) who aren't Bards.And I never suggested "Musician" as better name for the Bard class in English. "Musician" is of course a bland, generic word in English. However, the names Troubadour and Minstrel would've served just as well as "Bard", if Gygax had happened to choose those. Minstrel is used as the word for "music-playing hero" in Tolkien, and a "Troubadour" was more than just a singer - they were representatives of the esoteric Cathar / Manichean spirituality of the South of France. Skald would've worked too, but that would've definitely given a Norse flavoring.But I never suggested, in D&D English, that Musician should replace the name Bard.Thanks for the winks buddy. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />But naw, that's a mixed metaphor Hunter vs. Police Detective = Musician vs. Bard (???) and not so relevant.We agree that, in D&D English, the Bard is a class that encompasses potentially all musical-hero characters from all cultures.We are both relieved that I never suggested changing the D&D class name from Bard to Musician! Whew!In Ancient Greek D&D, a Mousikos or Aiodos is its own real-world thing, that benefits from Ancient Greek folklore and myth in an Ancient Greek fantasy game.Thanks for your suggested Aiodos class name, and responsive sharing. We agree on some things!***I still ask James Wyatt for an Appendix or Web Enhancement with official "D&D Ancient Greek" names for all the classes, races, and other key terms, for the World of Theros and other D&D Hellenic Adventures.In fact, if WotC will give me a complimentary copy of the book, and list my name in the credits, I could be willing to write the "Hellenic Adventures" Appendix for them! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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