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<blockquote data-quote="Dungeonosophy" data-source="post: 7943621" data-attributes="member: 6688049"><p>Are talking about in the D&D Multiverse, or in real life?</p><p></p><p>Yes, in the D&D Multiverse, the Bard encompasses all those wondrous things and more, while the "minstrel" has no official status in the game, and so represents nothing but fluff.</p><p></p><p>Yet, in the real world, (as you know) the word "bard" is simply the word in Celtic languages (such as Gaulish, Irish, and Welsh), for the ancient and medieval class of Celtic minstrels. And the word "minstrel" (from Latin <em>ministralis </em>'attendant') is simply the Latinate (Italian and French) word for the medieval class of Italian-French "bards." Yes, the status of the bard in ancient Celtic cultures was especially lofty (as was the scop and gleeman and skald in Germanic cultures, or similar musical-shamans in probably every ancient/traditional culture on earth). Yet many of archetypes included in the term "minstrel" are also lofty.</p><p></p><p>If we sat down and read the medieval tales and Romantic-period novels (and Tolkien!) about "minstrelsy", I'm sure we'd find many stories of Minstrels who are lorekeepers, storytellers, news-bringers, with elevated status, with prerogative to criticize the rulers, and the magical power to effect the world and people through speech and song.</p><p></p><p>See:</p><p><a href="http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Minstrels" target="_blank">Minstrels - Tolkien Gateway</a> (but also Luthien)</p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel[/URL]</p><p></p><p>And vice versa, in everyday Irish and Welsh of the early modern period, the term "bard" had degenerated into referring to more a ordinary profession.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So now you've switched to talking about what might be the best translation of the word "Bard" into Ancient Greek, for D&D Hellenic Adventures. I never suggested "Minstrel" as an Ancient Greek word for Bard. I only mentioned "Minstrel" and "Troubadour" as medieval-flavored words which could've been used by Gygax instead of "Bard", and if he did, we'd never know the difference--the words would serve just as well.</p><p></p><p>My point was to not get hung up on the word "bard", and just recognize that, in the context of D&D, the word simply means "music-wielding hero". And so, when coming up with an Ancient Greek D&D term, we'd want to use a similarly wide-encompassing word, such as Mousikos, rather than trying to keep the Celtic connections (by using the Late Greek word "Vardos"), which are incongruous with Ancient Hellenic culture.</p><p></p><p>Yes, in D&D English, Orpheus is a Bard. I'm suggesting that in an Ancient Greek translation of D&D, that Orpheus is a Mousikos, rather than a "Vardos."</p><p></p><p>Thanks for responding.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dungeonosophy, post: 7943621, member: 6688049"] Are talking about in the D&D Multiverse, or in real life? Yes, in the D&D Multiverse, the Bard encompasses all those wondrous things and more, while the "minstrel" has no official status in the game, and so represents nothing but fluff. Yet, in the real world, (as you know) the word "bard" is simply the word in Celtic languages (such as Gaulish, Irish, and Welsh), for the ancient and medieval class of Celtic minstrels. And the word "minstrel" (from Latin [I]ministralis [/I]'attendant') is simply the Latinate (Italian and French) word for the medieval class of Italian-French "bards." Yes, the status of the bard in ancient Celtic cultures was especially lofty (as was the scop and gleeman and skald in Germanic cultures, or similar musical-shamans in probably every ancient/traditional culture on earth). Yet many of archetypes included in the term "minstrel" are also lofty. If we sat down and read the medieval tales and Romantic-period novels (and Tolkien!) about "minstrelsy", I'm sure we'd find many stories of Minstrels who are lorekeepers, storytellers, news-bringers, with elevated status, with prerogative to criticize the rulers, and the magical power to effect the world and people through speech and song. See: [URL='http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Minstrels']Minstrels - Tolkien Gateway[/URL] (but also Luthien) [URL unfurl="true"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel[/URL] And vice versa, in everyday Irish and Welsh of the early modern period, the term "bard" had degenerated into referring to more a ordinary profession. So now you've switched to talking about what might be the best translation of the word "Bard" into Ancient Greek, for D&D Hellenic Adventures. I never suggested "Minstrel" as an Ancient Greek word for Bard. I only mentioned "Minstrel" and "Troubadour" as medieval-flavored words which could've been used by Gygax instead of "Bard", and if he did, we'd never know the difference--the words would serve just as well. My point was to not get hung up on the word "bard", and just recognize that, in the context of D&D, the word simply means "music-wielding hero". And so, when coming up with an Ancient Greek D&D term, we'd want to use a similarly wide-encompassing word, such as Mousikos, rather than trying to keep the Celtic connections (by using the Late Greek word "Vardos"), which are incongruous with Ancient Hellenic culture. Yes, in D&D English, Orpheus is a Bard. I'm suggesting that in an Ancient Greek translation of D&D, that Orpheus is a Mousikos, rather than a "Vardos." Thanks for responding. [/QUOTE]
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