1st level PC as novice or hero - do it behind the curtain!

[S'mon]

I posted this in a 5e thread, but it really belongs in the 4e forum.

It's often said that 4e PCs are too heroically powerful at level 1. Other people complain about 2 levels of fighting kobolds and goblins before you're ready to face an orc. In reality, it's all about monster demographics - how the GM stats out his world.

4e 1st level works fine as 'novice straight off the farm', indeed I just played a Ravenloft game where our 1st level PCs were 13 year old children! The GM accomplishes this feeling very easily by not using any* minions below about 6th level; just use the standard monster stats. So no min-2 Human Rabble or min-1 kobolds and goblins, instead baseline goblin or kobold (equivalent to 1/2 hd monster in 1e) is a 1st level skirmisher (eg goblin warrior), while baseline human combatant, equivalent to a 0th leveller in 1e, is a 2nd level standard monster like the common human bandit.

*You could use minion stats to represent non-combatants and trivial threats. A large rat with a nasty bite might be minion-1, an angry child with a rock might be human rabble-2.

Conversely, in an 'heroic out the gate' game, you stat most goblins and kobolds as min-1s, the typical bandit is a min-2 human goon, etc, and a standard monster skirm-2 bandit is a 'boss' or veteran. Compared to the 'novice' approach you've just quadrupled PC power relative to the world, and it took practically no work.

Good NPC demographics can really solve a lot of issues, IME.

And the beauty of this approach is, by about 6th level both 'novice' and hero' demographics converge, for higher level monsters you just use the same stats. Whether the 1st level PCs were farmboys or minor heroes soon ceases to matter.

 

[Rechan]

Part of the "1st level are heroes" is for instance at-wills/encounters/dailies. The idea that an apprentice wizard can cast fireballs (Scorching bursts) all day long isn't "Novice"-y. Or rather, it doesn't compare to earlier editions where they got at most 3 spells.

I'm playing devil's advocate here.

 

[keterys]

I'm not sure many people associate Scorching Burst with Fireball that closely. You still get Sleep only once a day, for example. And it's even less effective than it used to be

The other complaint I see is that people can get hit many times... but if you don't use minions, it's only like 3 times, which isn't that far off from a 10 hp fighter getting hit by 3 goblins or whatever for 1d6 each.

The other thing you can do is throw in more higher level or elite stuff. You can have orcs and such at low level. They're just really very brutal and mean Especially as brutes, that gets you the old feeling quite easily.

 

[Rechan]

I'm not sure many people associate Scorching Burst with Fireball that closely. You still get Sleep only once a day, for example. And it's even less effective than it used to be

But apparently some people have a problem with wizards having at-will magic. It's not my issue, so I can only give the explanation they do.

 

[D'karr]

To this day I have not had a problem with challenging my low level characters with credible threats. I have had more deaths in 4e than in any edition before, combined. Usually when things start going south, they escalate rather rapidly, and the party has to bring their A game at that point to survive.

I had a TPK with my group when they encountered a "Witch", her pet ogre, and their cultist minions. All of them rather "mundane".

When we started again (after the TPK) their party was sent out to find a paladin friend of the local priest who had gone into the swamps. The party didn't even catch on that they were going to rescue the only sole survivor from the previous party (he was absent on the day of the second game).

I actually ramp down kobolds and goblins to make them less deadly, then I put them in larger numbers. This scares the hell out of the players, because when 5-10 minions gang up on you and hit it is going to hurt, a lot.

When the party gets to second level then they start taking on, a few undead, also in numbers. I really enjoy having a lot of critters against the party. It makes combats very interesting.

I like the fact that a lucky hit on my part is not going to take out any member of the party. It lets me ramp up the opposition. BTW, when the critters start using tactics, traps, and artillery, the party wakes up pretty fast.

I actually don't miss the fragility of 1st level. If players are not careful, their characters are just as dead as they were when they were fragile.

 

[S'mon]

Part of the "1st level are heroes" is for instance at-wills/encounters/dailies. The idea that an apprentice wizard can cast fireballs (Scorching bursts) all day long isn't "Novice"-y. Or rather, it doesn't compare to earlier editions where they got at most 3 spells.

I'm playing devil's advocate here.

Against 28 hit point kobolds as standard, it's more of a "light sauteeing burst"

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION], good post.

Although, I'm almost suprised that it has to be posted - it looks kind-of obvious. I assume that the "1st level as farmboys" crowd aren't just focusing on the numbers, as if 30 hp was uber-powerful in some absolute sense. Maybe what they're missing is the possibility (or, in the case of MU or Thief, probability) of a one-hit kill.

 

[keterys]

Well, a wizard might have 20 hp, die from 30 damage. Paladin more like 30 hp, die from 45.

Looking at a few L1-5 Brutes from Monster Vault:
A bloodspear ogrillon can do 35 damage in a single shot, and has an at-will double attack.
A young white dragon can do 34 in a single shot, and is even fairly likely to do so while bloodied.
A tigerclaw fang wielder can do 41 and ongoing 5 in a single shot... and it's a standard, so make sure to have 2 or 3 of them for a nice level 1 fight.

Dunno, I think things can bring the damage in 4e, if you choose to let them.

 

[S'mon]

[MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION], good post.

Although, I'm almost suprised that it has to be posted - it looks kind-of obvious. I assume that the "1st level as farmboys" crowd aren't just focusing on the numbers, as if 30 hp was uber-powerful in some absolute sense. Maybe what they're missing is the possibility (or, in the case of MU or Thief, probability) of a one-hit kill.

I think the absolute level of lethality in the game is a different issue than relative power vs the world of starting PCs. If you like 1st level PCs who die with one hit, you probably like save-or-die and no-save-die spells at high level, too.

 

[pemerton]

I think the absolute level of lethality in the game is a different issue than relative power vs the world of starting PCs. If you like 1st level PCs who die with one hit, you probably like save-or-die and no-save-die spells at high level, too.

Well, yes, but I think there is a more-than-coincidence-level correlation between the complaint about 4e PCs being too uber at start, and the complaint about the lack of save-or-die. I'm not saying the correlation is 100%, but I think it's there.