D&D 5E 2/18/13 L&L column

[Garthanos]

@Garthanos PS, you need to clear out your private message box.

Thanks will do

 

[FireLance]

The problem is when you're not in a stress-free environment, such as in the middle of a dungeon exploration or a time critical mission such as "stop the evil cleric ritual before the next new moon", which are quite common scenarios.

Then you've failed to accomplish your objective. It could be because of bad luck, poor adventure design (maybe the DM used too many monsters or too powerful monsters) or poor decision-making on the part of the players (maybe they attacked monsters they could have evaded), but whatever the reason, you now have to deal with the consequences. It's a more unforgiving playstyle, but it isn't impossible to pull off.

 

[MoonSong]

Besides, here is still the fact that the DM could run a cleric NPC to go along witht the party, or if the system is as simple to run as they are promising, have the most skilled player handle both a helbot cleric and another more active PC, or even better give the party shared ocntrol over the healbot. It isn't as if it is the end of the world just because the cleric is intended as the main source of healing and nobody feels up to play one. Actually better yet, have some suggestions on how to get around not having a cleric, or a rogue, or a wizard, or a fighter in the party.

If you really feel the urge to replace, trivialize and/or obsolete the cleric then run standard or advanced, simple as that.

 

[FireLance]

Or did he mean that a cleric is required *if* you wanted characters to regain hit points FASTER than through normal overnight recovery?

I think I've finally realized the source of perhaps one of the disconnects.

Adopting 5e's terminology of the "standard adventuring day" as a shorthand for "the number of challenges and fights (measured in terms of XP) that a party should be able to handle before it needs to rest":

1. The presence or absence of a cleric should not change the length of an adventuring day. A cleric that prepares a healing spell could restore damage, but if that cleric was replaced by a damage-dealing ("striker") character or had prepared an offensive spell instead, he could have killed an enemy before it dealt that damage. If that cleric was replaced by a protecting ("defender") character or had prepared a defensive spell instead, he could have prevented that damage from being dealt in the first place.

2. Adding damage mitiation or avoidance abilities to all classes increases the length of the adventuring day. However, this would not have any effect on the "experience" of playing a cleric. The fact that a player is running a cleric who has prepared healing spells should be enough to ensure that the healing will be necessary, because the cleric is neither killing the opponents fast enough or preventing damage to the party.

3. One of the key effects of having a cleric would be to reduce the downtime between adventuring days. This is not an issue if each adventure consists of only one adventuring day, and the PCs have sufficient downtime between adventures to recover fully. However, if each adventure consists of more than one adventuring day (so that most parties will have to rest to recover resources at least once during the adventure) and natural healing is slow (because hit points are considered "meat") then magical healing is the only way to reduce downtime between adventuring days. If the party want to guarantee a source of magical healing, then someone has to play the cleric. Mind you, this happens only because of the traditiona disconnect between recovery of spell/ability resources and hit point resources, but that is a whole separate issue.

With that in mind, my answers to Dire Human's questions are:

1. Should the Core require Cleric healing? Is it OK to have a party of four non-healers survive an adventure long enough to get loot and go home?

Yes, if the adventure is one adventuring day in length. If the adventure is two or more adventuring days in length, then the length of downtime between adventuring days for a party of non-healers may become an issue.

2. Should the Core require Cleric healing? Is it OK to have different classes (Warlords, Bards, etc) that also fulfill the required healing role?

As others have mentioned, the Basic game only requires cleric healing.

3. Should the Core require Cleric healing? Is it OK to have different types of abilities that work similar mathematically to healing (temporary hit points, parrying, dodging, etc) and one of those be required?

It's okay to have such abilities, and adding them would extend the adventuring day. However, none of these would actually make a cleric obsolete since during the adventure, the presence of a cleric with healing spells means that the healing spells will need to be used to get to the end of the standard adventuring day, and between adventuring days, none of these abilities actually work to reduce the downtime.

 

[Garthanos]

Due respect, but how does this leap make sense?

Sorry stream of conciousness with mulitple streams getting crossed probably mangled that expression (insomnia what an idiotic blessed/curse).

The thing that makes them fragile is independent of the rest (fragility is that one shot and you are down low level characters). - Fragility is another factor that weights the value of the healer. Since having a character out of the fight is really easy to result a party collapse.
You healed him every thing he accomplishes for the remainder of the fight is in a sense yours... its a hidden value.

Having someone to magically seal wounds is OBviously going to make survival easier.

I am an incredibly offensive fighter I take down enemies fast enough the party doesnt even get targetted... why am I not making survival easier?
My defensive oriented fighter who protects and uses disruptive shot to interfere with ranged enemies attacks or whatever other mechanism he ends up having - ought to end up making survival easier since less damage gets through..

ie we all should be of roughly analogous resultant impact... the DM shouldnt need to nerf the adventure for lack of a Cleric.

influence it simply does not have.

Not sure why you dont see that game elements influence player and dm behavior by creating functional rewards those who 5MWD are being influenced by the game creating rewards of empowerment.
With regards to this specific thing?
If the DM has to make the encounters wimpier because you have 4 fighters instead of 3 and a cleric.. it ought to be a subtle amount and relate to (intra character ability synergy not because 4 clerics are just better). CoDzilla hides in this stuff if you let it be different seriously why bother with other classes.

I...ok. I don't know how else to put it. So...if the Basic game said, "You don't need a cleric to heal. Natural healing requires 1 week in a secure restful environment to return to full HP. You just have to survive long enough to get back to that secure restful environment." THAT would be ok with you? Or that is somehow still making a cleric "obligatory"?

This is probably a branching off topic the original 4e classes are no more or less balanced by changing those durations but a fighter in Next would be far more valuable than a spell caster in NEXT with that adjustment.

 

[Garthanos]

Besides, here is still the fact that the DM could run a fighter NPC to go along witht the party, or if the system is as simple to run as they are promising, have the most skilled player handle both a fightbot and another more active PC, or even better give the party shared ocntrol over the fightbot. It isn't as if it is the end of the world just because the fighter is intended as the main source of deadliness and nobody feels up to play one.

If you really feel the urge to replace, trivialize and/or obsolete the fighter then run standard or advanced, simple as that.

Hmmm just seeing if it sounded as lopsided with a different archetype in place...

Sorry not sure what to think... relative value of the classes should be comparable.

 

[Libramarian]

I feel that a lot of people are still not getting what it is about Clerics that appeals to people who actually like playing Clerics. They need to have a noticeable impact on the group's stamina.

For every group of jerks who forces somebody to be a cleric when they don't want to, there's a group of not-jerks who don't force anybody to do anything, but give the person who does decide to be a cleric props and positive vibes. Cleric players like that.

Having a cleric in the party increase your average adventuring day from 4 encounters to 5 sounds about right to me.

 

[mlund]

I feel that a lot of people are still not getting what it is about Clerics that appeals to people who actually like playing Clerics. They need to have a noticeable impact on the group's stamina.

...

Having a cleric in the party increase your average adventuring day from 4 encounters to 5 sounds about right to me.

Um, no. Definitely not. Adding a Cleric to the party should add exactly as much adventuring-day to the group as adding a Wizard or a Thief or a Fighter. No class does more in terms of how much you can achieve in a day. They each simply do it differently.

There are always ways in which healing works that "do more damage faster," "dodge more blows," or "have more hit points," don't cover. The point is that all things being equal, on the aggregate, it comes out in the wash. Healing is just more consistent due to a combination of flexibility and reliability. People will get damage rolled against them. Not every damage effect is going to be subject to Parry, Protect, Temp HP, your buff AC, or your advantage on Saving Throws. There's so many different ways to get hurt it isn't even funny.

He's also the only guy who can miraculously help people who you come across who are already hurt, or fix up problems after the party gets split, etc.

Healing is also definitely not the only thing the Cleric is expected to do, otherwise the spell list would be 9 entries long. That's definitely not what D&DNext - even in Basic - is all about.

- Marty Lund

 

[sheadunne]

I feel that a lot of people are still not getting what it is about Clerics that appeals to people who actually like playing Clerics. They need to have a noticeable impact on the group's stamina.

For every group of jerks who forces somebody to be a cleric when they don't want to, there's a group of not-jerks who don't force anybody to do anything, but give the person who does decide to be a cleric props and positive vibes. Cleric players like that.

Having a cleric in the party increase your average adventuring day from 4 encounters to 5 sounds about right to me.

I agree with this. The point of playing a cleric is to keep the adventurers adventuring. The help keep everyone healthy and happy and doing their things. Sure you can fight when you need to or chase away the creepy undead, but your central purpose is to make sure the other adventurers are in top fighting order. It's a selfless class to play and there is much enjoyment in that.

The two types of characters I enjoy playing the most are the support cleric and the support wizard, both of whom are designed to keep the rest of the party in peek condition and keep the adventure moving forward. Sure the party can survive and thrive without one, but life is so much easier when one's around. Players who enjoy those rolls don't want to fight monsters and find hidden doors. They are more interested in fighting death and finding ways to keep everyone alive.

And yes, mundane healing takes away from that play experience, it forces the cleric to take on rolls that aren't enjoyable for those types of players. If the player cannot help the others in combat through healing and buffs and support, then you won't get them to play the new edition. They will continue to play one of the older editions, or move on to a system that supports that type of play.

 

[Garthanos]

And yes, mundane healing takes away from that play experience, it forces the cleric to take on rolls that aren't enjoyable for those types of players.

There is no connection between having to take other roles and the existence of "mundane healing" not sure what makes you think there is... the Pacifist Cleric is an interesting build that comes to mind (basically the best Healer in the game).