D&D 5E 2/25/2013 L&L: This Week in D&D

[Balesir]

The way I look at it is D&D is like a blockbuster movie. Its really not meant for critics but the public. And it isnt meant for one single demographic, but many. You cant hold it up to the same lens you might use to evaluate a historical drama or an highbrow indie flick.

Yeah - for me, though, I'm finding it tough to not blame it for the cancellation of "Fourthfly"...

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah - for me, though, I'm finding it tough to not blame it for the cancellation of "Fourthfly"...

Does that make us 4e browncoats? We need some kind of uniform, maybe a Dragonborn Warlord T-shirt.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Their stated aim is to support all playstyles, but the point I am making is there is always going to be an argument from some quarter that their playstyle is not supported. And at the emd of the day, if they decide making a game that supports all platystyles is not feasible, they should change their design goals.

I agree, but if they have done so, it has not been publicly stated as such. Additionally, if they have changed their goal, then I am certainly no longer interested and would appreciate getting a press release to that effect so I can stop wasting my time here arguing into the wind about it.

i am not saying they shouldn't appeal to the 4E playstyle. I am saying the game isn't going to appeal directly to anyone single group, they are trying to cast the broadest net possible, which means it is going to include 4E, 3E, 2e, 1E and basic elements. Doing so may drive some people like me or you away, but it wont drive everyone away.

Well, if it drives me, and a significant enough number of 4e fans away, then it still fails. I guess they didn't cast their net broad enough. Likewise for fans of any other edition, including you.

I dont know. i believe they may have to a degree. There does seem to be some adjustment to the language over the course of the playtest (though maybe my initial expectations were colored by misunderstanding). I think it is normal an good to do so. Design goals are great but rigid adherence to them at the expense of enjoyment at the table is not good. I think designers do need to re-evaluate their initial goals in light of feedback and testing.

I agree, and if in doing so they need to change their design goals, then they should be up front about that. I have less than zero desire to be invested in a process whose final product I won't enjoy.

i dont know that it has failed. I think the loudest people like me and you dont like it, but I also see lots of folks from different camps who say they like what they see.

Fair enough, and that is largely made up of the crowd that just wants to play D&D in its newest incarnation. There's nothing wrong with that. But there are a significant number of folks who have developed distinct preferences over the years, and if the game fails to appeal to those people, like you and I, then they are not meeting their stated goal, and hence, failing.

Lets be realistic about that though. Their main goal is to make money, not to be meet some vague design goal. Their stated design goal could be more pr than anything else. They may well be operating under different goals behind the scenes (or simply use the one edition to bring them all as a simplified bullet point). Either way, they will never bring them all. That is literally an impossibility. What they can do is bring a lot of people back together. So I think if they do better this time than they did last time, that is a success. That is still a tall order though.

I am being realistic, and I am not talking about their corporate goals at all when I say whether or not it fails. I am only talking about their stated design goals. And if that means they don't appeal to the fans they did create with their "last time", then no, sorry, it will be a failure to meet their stated goal. It can make money, it can do 'alright' and be more popular or at least less reviled by the militant traditionalists than 4e, but it will still represent a failure to meet their design goals. That was my point, and all I am saying when I say that so far Next fails. You can have whatever criteria you like for the success or failure of Next, but that doesn't change what I am saying at all.

If they fail to capture my interests and the interests of like-minded gamers, then they've failed to meet their stated aim. Period. This is neither harsh nor unfair, it is an objective truth. If your goal is X, and you fail to meet the definition of X, then you've failed to meet your goal, regardless if you achieve A, B, C, Y, and Z in the process. Heck, if the goal is to meet A, B, C, X, Y, and Z and you miss any of them, it's a failure.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Yeah - for me, though, I'm finding it tough to not blame it for the cancellation of "Fourthfly"...

Ugh. Didn't like that show at all. *ducks rotten tomatoes*

I get the sentiment though

I preferred Farscape, myself, and it suffered a similar fate. Heh, "Fourthscape." I think that even if less popular a reference, it sounds better

 

[Stalker0]

I preferred Farscape, myself, and it suffered a similar fate. Heh, "Fourthscape." I think that even if less popular a reference, it sounds better

I like Farscape myself, but it got 4 seasons....that's a solid run for a tv show. Firefly got 1. Not the same thing

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I like Farscape myself, but it got 4 seasons....that's a solid run for a tv show. Firefly got 1. Not the same thing

They also both got movies to "finish" the series' and both were arguably unsatisfying to their respective fanbases. You make a fair point though

 

[sheadunne]

I like Farscape myself, but it got 4 seasons....that's a solid run for a tv show. Firefly got 1. Not the same thing

Does four seasons on Sci-Fi equal 1 season on Fox, plus a theater released movie?

I like both shows for completely differently reasons.

Isn't BSG a better show to compare to? I mean, original was a lot of fun and the remake was equally as enjoyable. Now there's also a few odd ducks in their too like Galactica 1980, Caprica, Blood and Chrome, and also the possibility of a new show. I'm not picking versions to compare to, just saying that it's a diverse line like our own D&D.

 

[Balesir]

Does that make us 4e browncoats? We need some kind of uniform, maybe a Dragonborn Warlord T-shirt.

Someone should definitely do that. In brown.

Edit: "Fourthscape" has a certain ring, even if it got nowhere near as bungled a handling.

Maybe "BattleFourth Fantastica" could work, too?

There's a whole range of T-shirts, right there!

 

[Ratskinner]

I agree.I think we're seeing shifts up and down toward what I want and I'm sure everyone is in the same boat. One minute they say they have the core rules all but finished and the next we get posts about healing in the core rules, then we get another statement that seems to go in another direction. Sigh. Oh well, we're along for the ride even if it's in stormy weather.

I suspect that's just a difference between what a designer calls "core rules" and what a player calls "core rules".

 

[sheadunne]

Someone should definitely do that. In brown.

Edit: "Fourthscape" has a certain ring, even if it got nowhere near as bungled a handling.

Maybe "BattleFourth Fantastica" could work, too?

There's a whole range of T-shirts, right there!

I don't know about t-shirts but I'm stealing that for my next D&D town. I may change it to Battleforth Fantastica