2-D maps or 3-D terrain?

[shoggothic]

Hi everyone,

I have been a forum lurker on many RPG sites who has been playing RPGs since Reaganomics. As a great community of gamers, I wanted to pose several questions to you, as I have been pounding my head against the proverbial brick wall trying to reach a conclusion about this subject.

I am getting ready to start 2 D&D 3.5 campaigns, both Forgotten Realms, with Dungeon magazine adventures, WoTC modules, and Adventure Path scenarios thrown into the mix. For the first time in my life I have a descent job that has allowed me to purchase not only every miniature I want, but have quite a few custom sculpts as well. Now that I have the visual element (that, by the way, was lacking in my 1st and 2nd Ed. games) of the creatures/adventurers represented, I have found a new hurdle to overcome...maps, or terrain?

I want the grid-based system of maps, and yet, can't seem to stop viewing the Hirst Arts/Dwarven Forge/Aintsy pages. I have considered using a 2-D top-down mapping program like Dundjinni or Dungeon Desinger 2, but I am concerned about ease of use and learning curves...I am not a computer programmer. I have used Dwarven Forge sets in the past (at one time I owned almost 30 sets-it takes a LOT of cavern sets to actually make an Underdark cavern), but I hated the inability to recreate a exact map of my adventures, coupled with lack of transportability and set-up and tear-down times.

However, I found the MOST frustrating thing about Dwarven Forge were the walls...it would be a better product if you could just use them as a tile-based system-try fitting an Aboleth or Tendriculous into a 20' x 20' room with 4 PC's, yeah right!). Yeah, it looks great, but is a pain to deal with unless your planing a diorama.

These are my ideas...
1)-Use a top-down 2-D mapping program, print out the encounter areas, and place them as the party moves into the areas, OR
2)-Use a top-down 2-D mapping program to make either the whole dungeon area or battle maps, print out and then place 3-D objects (like treasure, doors, furniture, traps, etc.) as they encounter them (i.e. Hero Quest style), OR
3)-Use 3-D modular tiles from Hirst Arts (already created thanks to Ian Martin at Castlekits, so it saves me the work of buying molds and casting), mixed with some of the newer Dwarven Forge Cavernous Sets. The idea here is that I still have the element of 3-D, but without the tight fit of the walls...unfortunately, ALL custom rooms and effects (such as waterfalls, rope bridges, circular rooms with multiple stair cases, etc.) would require being scratch built, for one use

As you can see, I feel I have bitten off more than I can chew here, and any light you can shed on the topic of Adventure presentation would be greatly appreciated!

Regards,
Greg

 

[Festivus]

I use gimp to resize images from PDF or scans of maps. I have tried the 3d terrain but I dislike having the walls block my line of sight. They also take forever to put together, there are storage issues, etc.

I now use a combination of blank battlemaps, dungeon tiles, and these blown up images.

To blow up the images, I first capture it into a jpg file either via scanning or cutting from a PDF file.

Then I take that file into Paint and erase out stuff I dont want to be seen on the table (e.g. secret doors that might be on the map).

Then I load the map into Gimp, and use the Tools/Measure tool, switch my units of measure to inches and then measure the size of one square, write it down. Then measure the width of the map as a whole, and write it down. Now divide the total image width by the size of one square. This is your new image width in inches. Now use the Image/Scale Image tool to resize to this new size. You might need to fine tune the adjustments but I find as long as you are close it's fine. Save this image out to a jpg, then convert to PDF (you can use PDF995 if you don't own Acrobat Pro). Now just print it out, (don't forget to tile large pages... you may need an older version of adobe for this).

Anyhow, thats how I do it. In game I sometimes cover portions of the map with cardboard so the players can't see all the map... I have toyed with using a black cloth to act as my fog of war but haven't had a chance to try it yet.

 

[takasi]

May I suggest an alternative if you have some money?

Laptop. Flat-screen TV. MapTool. Laser Pointers.

I have thousands of pieces of plastic that are now obsolete.

 

[shoggothic]

Hmm, interesting concept. It would certainly save me the time of having to recreate the map in another program. What kind of scanner do you use and do you lose any quality when blowing up maps that fit on the inside back of the module (i.e. Sunless Citadel) or map booklets (i.e. Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil)? Also, what kind of Paint program do you use?

Thanks again for the assistance Festivus!

 

[Kristian Serrano]

To the OP, have you tried WotC's 2D Dungeon Tiles? They're low cost, look great, and don't have walls that get in the way. They only limitation is the inability to have diagonal walls in the middle of a room, which is why I ordered some of those new Dungeon Life: Bendy Dungeon Walls.

 

[SavageRobby]

I use a combination of 2D and 3D.

I use a lot of WorldWorksGames products (cardstock models - can't beat the price or flexibility), but in practice I found that the dungeon products get in the ways of hands and visibility (even though they do look great), plus a lot of DDM minis are large for scale, and they end up not fitting into the terrain areas. So for most of my interior stuff, I use 2D products - either maps I made myself with Dundjinni (which has a very small learning curve), or tiles such as WotC's Dungeon tiles (plus others print-your-own tiles as well).

I do use a lot of 3D props along with the 2D tiles/maps, and still use cardstock models for many exterior items, as well as setting pieces.

 

[FATDRAGONGAMES]

Fat Dragon Games offers a number of 3D item packs that are perfect for adding 3D details to 2D tiles or a battlemat. Check us out if you get a chance.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

There is also 2.5 D - where walls are just assumed, but important stuff like doors, fireplaces, etc. are 3D. Both World Works and Ebbles Miniatures are doing things along those lines. The first time I can remember seeing something along those lines was the old HeroQuest game by Milton Bradley and Games Workshop. It makes reaching for the miniatures easier, though I generally prefer full 3D.

Look around the web for tiles that have been made for HeroQuest and Warhammer Quest - there are an awful lot of well drawn tiles out there. Though of course not as many as there once were.

A few I could find quickly -
http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/roadrash/317/dungeon/wqframes.html
http://users.frii.com/evil/wq/Floorplans.html
http://www.wqchronicles.com/boards/boards.htm

The Auld Grump

 

[shoggothic]

To the OP, have you tried WotC's 2D Dungeon Tiles?

Amaril,

I had considered the WoTC tiles, but felt that they too woul be too limiting, much like the Skeletonkey Games tiles...they look really good, but I can't really use those unless I'm playing homebrew adventures. Right now I'm trying to recreate or emulate exisitng maps for modlues like Sunless Citadel and Shackled City Adventure Path. I guess I could cut them up and tape them together but that seems like a step backwards. Will have to check out those Bendy Dungeon Walls though!

 

[shoggothic]

May I suggest an alternative if you have some money?

Laptop. Flat-screen TV. MapTool. Laser Pointers.

Takasi,

Originally, I had wanted to try that, with a projector instaed of a flat-screen, but the start-up capital for a descent laptop and any type of projector with a real ppi is still beyond me at this point...at least for a pen & paper game! :\