D&D 3E/3.5 2 Questions (3.5)

[TremorFang]

I have two totally different questions.

1st question:
PART 1
Is it possible to have a wondrous item that has charges of a quickened spell?
For instance a ring with 5 charges of quickened true strike.
PART 2
If so what would go into making something like that and what might the price be?

2nd Question:
Do effects like Pain stack?
For instance would the -4 from symbol of pain and another spell that gives a negative number to rolls stack?

Thanks.

 

[jefgorbach]

Question 1: Ring of Quickened True Strike
True Strike is a 1st level spell with no material or xp components, taking 1 standard action to cast. Presuming a lenient DM allows your first level mage's Mentor to assist:

Mundane Ring: negligible
True Strike upon Command Word: Spell level(1) × caster level(1) × 1,800 gp
No reduction for 5 uses per day (Divide 1800 by (5 divided by 5 charges per day)=1800/1
plus no additional material component expenses
plus no additional XP costs
for a final cost of 1,800gp

However most DM's wouldnt end-run RAW in such fashion, instead requiring the caster to have the Forge Ring feat themselves, making the calculation:

Mundane Ring: negligible
True Strike upon Command Word: Spell level(1) × caster level(12) × 1,800 gp= 21,600
No reduction for 5 uses per day
plus no additional material component expenses
plus no additional XP costs
for a final cost of 21,600gp subject to DM approval/adjustment

Quicken raises it to a 5th level spell slot making your final cost to 6,480,000gp


Question 2:
Symbol of Pain doesnt specify a "type" so while technically it seems logical to stack subsequent uses, surely any reasonable DM would -NOT- do so simply so the receiver has a fighting chance to make whatever actions needed to further an enjoyable storyline.

 

[TremorFang]

Thanks for all of the info. I guess I would be better of looking at the True Strike Gauntlets then; at least I would pay about 6,476,000 or so less, but you can only get one use per day. (Seems pretty fair.)

I see what you mean about giving the victim of "pain magic" a fighting chance. Although if they were faced with a huge minotaur or something else that had an insane attack roll, I would think it would make more sense.

Thanks again.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Typically, spell effects, even untyped effects, that origionate from the same spell cast mulitple times, do not stack. If you Ray of Enfeeble someone, and then Ray of Enfeeble them again, the Str penalties would overlap, rather than stack. If you affected someone with 2 different Symbols of Pain, they would only be affected by both, but the effects would overlap rather than stack. If you had a monk friend punch them with Pain Touch (CWarrior), it would stack, since its a different effect from a different source, regardless of the type.

Items of True Strike are generally a bad idea. The "guidelines" tend to break apart when you use them. Instead of using the forumla presented above, (SL x CL x 1800g), follow Mage Armor's example (Continuous Mage Armor should cost 1800g, but Bracers of Armor (based on MA) follow the 1000 x (bonus)^2. Thus, an item that grants TS often enough to be treated as continuous or nearly continuous would probably follow the weapon enhancement guidelines, or 2000 x (bonus)^2, or 800,000 g. And thats not even including TS's ability to ignore concealment.

All magic item creation guidelines are subject to DM adjustment and arbitration because they aren't hard rules.

 

[frankthedm]

Pricing a magic item is not G.U.R.P.S. character creation.

 

[Empirate]

It must surely be counted among the worst design decisions ever to try and find formulae for magic item pricing. As can be seen playing Morrowind, where you're free to design your own magic items within a given ruleset. Once you get to the levels where you can actually do that, the game is over as a challenge.


Also, to contribute regarding the OP's questions:
Penalties, like bonuses, don't stack if one of the following conditions is met:

1. they're of the same type (enhancement, sacred/profane, etc.): you can't stack the Str bonus from Bull's Strength and Divine Favor, because they're both enhancement bonuses. This doesn't normally apply to penalties, since they're almost always untyped.

2. they're derived from the same effect (one spell or one ability): you can't stack Str bonuses from two uses of a Barbarian's Rage. Similarly, you can't stack the attack penalties from two Symbols of Pain.

Whenever two penalties are not derived from the same source effect, you can stack them. Note that ability penalties can never reduce an effective ability score below 1.

 

[CuRoi]

Wondrous Items would be best as opposed to rings, though again we get into areas where I think the whole magic item creation system further broken.

At any rate, I've put Quickened True Strike into artifacts in my camapaign, but I agree with the sentiment here - making continuous items of this is just a bad idea. Its not just the +20 on the roll but the ignoring concealment thing which most people tend to ignore after they see +20 in the spell description : )

Ultimately it is up to the DM. Players who have their hands on a DMG usually fail to understand that and I can sympathize. They see the formulas, get excited, and think of some awesome combinations to create. However it's very easy to completely break the game with a custom magic item.

However, even if the DM allows it, there are several things to consider.I think the MINIMUM cost of a continuous, use activated Quickened True Strike would be:

5 (spell level of quickened spell) x 9 (minimum caster level to quicken that spell) x 2000 x 4 (duration is actually less than "rounds") = 360,000

For one with 5 charges per day, it drops the price to 72,000. However, considering you presumably want to be able to expend those charges as a free action (unless it is always the first five swings you make with any weapon each day) the price should be adjusted upwards.

At any rate, I'd still nix the idea because even an unquickened True Strike item is a bit overpowered (factoring in things like Power Attack, Sneak Attack, etc, etc. Even if you can only get it every other round, it can still "break" things...)

 

[TremorFang]

[MENTION=78958]Empirate[/MENTION] good to know. This will be useful in future playing, thanks.

[MENTION=98032]CuRoi[/MENTION] I see what you mean, except the character I was planning on giving the item to is a sorcerer and we're playing a level 15 game. Thus the problem becomes if my character finds himself standing in front of 3 heavily armored warriors, would he have any real chance of hitting them with their likely high AC. Not to mention the average Dexterity (Probably 16 on Dex) and somewhat awful strength attributes he will most likely have.

That and sometimes you shouldn't risk missing. Anyway I may just ask for the true strike gauntlets. Only one use per day for your next attack. Seems pretty fair.

Thanks again all.

 

[Sekhmet]

Or you could choose to go with a non-quickened True Strike, and drop the necessary cost significantly.
1st level spell x cast as a 1st level caster (ring is being forged by another person while you weave enchantments) x 1,800 (command word) / 5 (charges per day) = 360 gold.

CuRoi, I don't recall duration being a factor in SRD creating magic items; also, the item is a command word item, not a use-activated/continuous item (use-activated items are "turned on" at will an infinite number of times per day, hence the description of the "Lantern of Revealing".

As a Quickened True Strike, the ring is 5 (spell level) x 9 (minimum caster level) x 1,800 (command word) / 5 (one use per day) = 16,200 gold.

 

[CuRoi]

Sekhmet - I was assuming you don't want the item to be command word activated right...I mean that negates the whole "Quicken" idea. It takes a standard action to activate a magic item whether it be by command word, button, switch, or silly dance (or lighting it such as a Lantern of Revealing - which can be blown out or extinguished forcing the user to light it again....) Putting some kind of activation requirement in front of a Quickened spell firing seems a bit pointless.

So I figured you might want this thing continuous where it will kick in whenever you swing at something for optimum effect.

Otherwise, as you point out, it may as well be non quickened and you will get your +20 every other round (one round to activate, the next to swing).



As continuous, the sub notes under one of the item creation tables specify

1. If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

Technically, the True Strike spell has a special duration, but given the potency of it, I would go with the highest multiplier.

TremorFang - While this may be for the melee-light Sorcerer (though it could be faily obscene with a Ray specialist Sorcerer, heh), I garauntee once it is introduced into the game the fighter/rogue etc will have one. - Of course its up to your DM and your group to ultimately decide if it works well for your style of play!