2 shaman SC question

[Wonderland666]

but it occupies 1 Square (Like an objekt which would give you cover too)

 

[DracoSuave]

but it occupies 1 Square (Like an objekt which would give you cover too)

An object does not necessarily give you cover or concealment unless it blocks or obscures lines of effect.

if it does, it's blocking or obscuring terrain.

Spirit Companion does not do that, it merely occupies a square, and it is not an ally.

 

[Dan'L]

Before we start, please notice this question has already been addressed by WotC.

That's nice. They need to put this in the updates, though, because as currently written there is no explicit rule that excludes a Conjuration that can be targeted by an attack from being targeted by an OA.

Opportunity Attacks can only be triggered by the following things:

A creature uses a ranged or area power adjacent to you.


A spirit companion cannot use powers, so therefore this cannot ever apply.

A creature enters a square adjacent to you.

A spirit companion is not a creature and therefore this cannot ever apply.

A couple notes. First, the rules don't read "creature," they read "enemy." Also, your second condition is incorrect, it's "leaves" a square, not "enters." Not that this makes a whole lot of difference to what you're saying, but if you're going to pull out the rules, it's nice to have them as written.

I will not say that the first cannot "ever" apply, since they seem fond of pumping up things through feats, just that at present it cannot apply, and move on.

On the second, there is no written rule that I have found (outside of your link to Customer Services' FAQ; thanks for that!) that states that conjurations cannot trigger OAs.

The closest I have found is the rule that precludes a conjuration from being the target of any attack -- and since this rule is explicitly overwritten by the Summon Spirit Companion power, allowing a Spirit Companion to be the target of melee attacks -- and since an OA is defined as a melee attacks -- it seemed to me to be a reasonable conclusion that a Spirit Companion can be the target of OAs.

Again, if it is their intention that conjurations that can be targeted by melee attacks but still cannot trigger OAs, they really need to write it into the rules. It shouldn't be left to the table to split the hair of when you can regard the SC as an enemy for one MBA but not another.

While I agree with you that if an OA were ever triggered by a spirit companion, that it would be a legal target for a melee basic attack, what you fail to realize is that the spirit companion never triggers that OA to begin with.

No, I get that this is what you & the link are saying, and overall I don't think that it would be unreasonable to build the game this way if that's what WOTC intends. I'm just saying that I can't find any actual rules that support this claim.

Also, OA is not a power.

Okay. I don't recall ever claiming that it was? I did claim was that it is a melee attack, is that what you're thinking of?

However, the conjuration is not an enemy. An enemy is a creature who is not your ally. The conjuration is not a creature, therefore not an enemy, and therefore cannot trigger opportunity attacks.

The fact that it can never trigger an opportunity attack, because it is a power effect, not an enemy.

As I see now, that is clearly their intention through the FAQ you linked. I was merely working in rules ignorance, since apparently all I thought to refer to was PHBs 1 & 2 and the latest update/errata Now that I've got a clearer official rules source, I concede your point. (I know this reads kind of snide, but I don't intend it that way. Thanks again for providing the link!)

-Dan'L

 

[DracoSuave]

Just for the record.

An opportunity attack is not defined as a melee attack. It's a triggered action that permits the use of a power, that power happens to be basic melee attack.

That attack can be replaced with other powers, and in a few cases, that power is not a melee attack.

 

[yesnomu]

What you are forgetting is that in order to be legally targetted by an effect or power, the Target must still be within the Range of the power. In your example, even though "You" can be a legal target according to the "Target" line of the power, being outside of the power's "Range" precludes your benefiting from the effects. (ex., Tide of Iron has target "one creature," but if that creature moves outside of your weapon range due to an immediate interrupt shift, your attack will not deal damage.)

I'd tend to agree with this, but then Wizards pulls out Moment of Glory:

Daily

Divine, Fear, Implement
Standard Action Close blast 5
Target: Each enemy in blast
Attack: Wisdom vs. Will
Hit: You push the target 3 squares and knock it prone.
Effect: You and each ally in the blast gain resist 5 to all damage until the end of your next turn.
Sustain Minor: The effect persists.

The wording is exactly the same as Prot Roots, but it's kind of impossible to be in your own (non-arcane) close blast...

 

[Dan'L]

Just for the record.

An opportunity attack is not defined as a melee attack. It's a triggered action that permits the use of a power, that power happens to be basic melee attack.

That attack can be replaced with other powers, and in a few cases, that power is not a melee attack.

You really must be privy to a different PHB or rules source than the ones I have. The PHB I have reads:

The most common form of opportunity action is an opportunity attack -- a melee basic attack against the creature that provokes it.

...in the general introduction paragraph to the Opportunity Attacks rules, and:

Melee Basic Attack: An opportunity attack is a melee basic attack

...in the specific Opportunity Attack rules.

Reads pretty definitive to me. I'd be interested to know where I can find rules that define it as something else, because from the rules that I have located, while Opportunity Attacks may well be triggered actions, they are defined as melee attacks. That certain powers or feats overwrite this definition does not change that this is how OAs are defined.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that something being a "triggered action" puts it into some category that is mutually exclusive of "melee attacks." I can assure you, there are many things in this game that are both triggered actions and melee attacks.

-Dan'L

 

[DracoSuave]

You raise an excellent point here.

Mind you, 'Basic melee attack' doesn't have a 'Trigger:' entry to it either, so even if that attack can target the conjuration, the trigger itself is a feature exclusive to OA, and has nothing to do with 'Basic Melee Attack.'

And SC's targetability only applies to powers, not to triggers that allow you to use them.

But again, a moot point. It's not an enemy, so it's not triggering OAs.

 

[karooba]

The Power has 'close Burst Spirit 1)
The Target ist: You and each ally in Burst.
Q: Does the shaman itself must be adjacent to his SC to get the effect?.

Moment of Glory
Effect: You and each ally in the blast gain resist 5 to all damage until the end of your next turn.

From this I'm inclined to think the designer's intent is that the Shaman does not need to be in the radius of the burst to get the effect.

 

[NMcCoy]

You need to be in the power's specified range to be a valid Target. The Effect can apply to anything it wants to, including non-Targets. Note in the Moment of Glory example that it doesn't say anything about targets in the Effect.

 

[karooba]

The problem is " You and each ally in Burst. " can have two interpretations, which I think can both be valid grammatically.

One interpretation is You and each ally in Burst meaning you and each ally must be in the burst. Most seem to be favoring this.

Another interpretation is You and each ally in Burst meaning you get the effect no matter where you are, then each ally in the burst gets the effect as well.