I'm going over to 2 healing surges per extended rest, which will allow for attrition as a concern in lower-threat encounters, and allow for adventures to be spread over multiple days.. Anyone else tried this ?. One reason for doing it is that my group are 6 16th level PCs and it's very hard to theaten them with a single encounter, unless it's so massive that it fills the entire three-hour session. Sometimes not even then!
2 surges per rest
- Thread starter S'mon
- Start date
That was one of my problems with 4E - for 30 years of gaming from the late 70s until 2008, the games I've been involved with have usually centered on one big "epic" encounter per each segment of the campaign with both sides going all-out for the entire battle, and it coming down to the last few rolls of the dice and the last few hit points on both sides... however, in all the 4E games I ran, I always found it very difficult to throw that one big epic encounter out there and find it satisfying to me as a DM and to the players. The players liked it, but when the BBEG is "down" to 500 hit points (bloodied) and all out of encounter/daily powers and is stuck with at-wills and a potential recharge only, and the players are all at full, it got pretty boring for me as DM.
I think the 2 surges per extended rest could work. You could also do the opposite - have it take longer for them to recover lost surges. Maybe they only recover one (or two) surge per extended rest unless they're in a special location? When I had asked about running a Midnight game, that idea was suggested to me on the forums.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I haven't found that to be a big problem.
My last campaign went up to 13th-level, and we had a healer who was as optimized as a non-pacifist cleric can get. The player built a balanced between devoted and tactical warpriest who had a large number of Healing Strike-like powers. The battles got really hard when the player considered dipping into his one or two daily healing utilities after using up all the encounter ones.
In the second last battle, I put five PCs up against 5 elite NPCs... who had their own (limited) healing. In the last round, three PCs were down, one bad guy was out (ran out of healing surges and bloodied, so decided not to stick around) and the NPC healer recharged their healing strike power again. They were taking a -2 penalty to hit (due to being hit by a paladin at-will whose name I can't recall at the moment) and marked by said PC paladin, who of course had high AC. The healer and his leader (a warlord/paladin-type) were both at less than 10 hit points, but the conscious PCs were so drained of healing abilities they were a hit from death too. The healer shifted into an attack position... and missed by one point. One. It was probably the closest to a TPK I had without actually wiping out the group.
The last battle (same in-universe day) had a solo boss, four artillery pieces that could regenerate her, and a soldier to guard her, all at PC level (this time there were six players, so six PCs). The PCs quickly learned to kill the artillery pieces because she was regenerating the damage they dealt to her. During the battle one PC's head blew up (the artillery pieces did psychic damage), so ... dead. When the solo was left by herself, the PCs were hitting her with 200 damage a round, and she couldn't keep up (she was a controller). It went very much like the first solo fight I had ever done (each dealt 200 damage to each other in the first round, and these were 3rd-level PCs vs a 4th-level solo brute), only this time the PCs were drained before they could fight her. Her aura very nearly TPK'd the party, but other than the one dead PC they desperately expended every healing resource they could, and convinced her to surrender. (Then they started working for her!)
And yes, those battles took a long time. So I guess I'm not a master.
Many of these techniques I learned from going to help sites. After going through Kingmaker (I was a player in that one) I noticed that many other players in my group only understood the numbers on their sheet, and hardly that (I had to explain the Big Six items, the requirement to do so stunned me). A lot of things a player or DM needs to know are unwritten, at least in the rulebooks.
Especially if the boss is a solo, the battle will take a long time. The DM should never give a solo an encounter ability (always recharge in some way), and the only encounter powers a boss should have is something like a dragon's Bloodied Breath (which does not count as an "additional" power). I learned this lesson after running Keep on the Shadowfell. Kalarel was "only" an elite, but he had so many levels he could have been an at-level solo instead (indeed, he should have been). He used up an encounter power and was reduced to using at-wills for the rest of the night. (I flatly lied to my players and told them he died when he had just hit his bloodied value, it was so boring. They were basically losing because they couldn't hit him.)
I don't see a need to change the number of surges regained per day. Instead, I have found ways to put PCs three as many as six encounters in a game day. I've had several encounters where some PCs started the battle with zero surges.
Maybe the PCs are doing boss battles as the first battle of the day, but a defense in depth should prevent that, and options that enable PCs to bypass encounters and teleport right into the boss's bedchamber don't really exist anymore.
My last campaign went up to 13th-level, and we had a healer who was as optimized as a non-pacifist cleric can get. The player built a balanced between devoted and tactical warpriest who had a large number of Healing Strike-like powers. The battles got really hard when the player considered dipping into his one or two daily healing utilities after using up all the encounter ones.
In the second last battle, I put five PCs up against 5 elite NPCs... who had their own (limited) healing. In the last round, three PCs were down, one bad guy was out (ran out of healing surges and bloodied, so decided not to stick around) and the NPC healer recharged their healing strike power again. They were taking a -2 penalty to hit (due to being hit by a paladin at-will whose name I can't recall at the moment) and marked by said PC paladin, who of course had high AC. The healer and his leader (a warlord/paladin-type) were both at less than 10 hit points, but the conscious PCs were so drained of healing abilities they were a hit from death too. The healer shifted into an attack position... and missed by one point. One. It was probably the closest to a TPK I had without actually wiping out the group.
The last battle (same in-universe day) had a solo boss, four artillery pieces that could regenerate her, and a soldier to guard her, all at PC level (this time there were six players, so six PCs). The PCs quickly learned to kill the artillery pieces because she was regenerating the damage they dealt to her. During the battle one PC's head blew up (the artillery pieces did psychic damage), so ... dead. When the solo was left by herself, the PCs were hitting her with 200 damage a round, and she couldn't keep up (she was a controller). It went very much like the first solo fight I had ever done (each dealt 200 damage to each other in the first round, and these were 3rd-level PCs vs a 4th-level solo brute), only this time the PCs were drained before they could fight her. Her aura very nearly TPK'd the party, but other than the one dead PC they desperately expended every healing resource they could, and convinced her to surrender. (Then they started working for her!)
And yes, those battles took a long time. So I guess I'm not a master.
Many of these techniques I learned from going to help sites. After going through Kingmaker (I was a player in that one) I noticed that many other players in my group only understood the numbers on their sheet, and hardly that (I had to explain the Big Six items, the requirement to do so stunned me). A lot of things a player or DM needs to know are unwritten, at least in the rulebooks.
NewJeffCT said:
Especially if the boss is a solo, the battle will take a long time. The DM should never give a solo an encounter ability (always recharge in some way), and the only encounter powers a boss should have is something like a dragon's Bloodied Breath (which does not count as an "additional" power). I learned this lesson after running Keep on the Shadowfell. Kalarel was "only" an elite, but he had so many levels he could have been an at-level solo instead (indeed, he should have been). He used up an encounter power and was reduced to using at-wills for the rest of the night. (I flatly lied to my players and told them he died when he had just hit his bloodied value, it was so boring. They were basically losing because they couldn't hit him.)
I don't see a need to change the number of surges regained per day. Instead, I have found ways to put PCs three as many as six encounters in a game day. I've had several encounters where some PCs started the battle with zero surges.
Maybe the PCs are doing boss battles as the first battle of the day, but a defense in depth should prevent that, and options that enable PCs to bypass encounters and teleport right into the boss's bedchamber don't really exist anymore.
Neonchameleon
Legend
It's not IMO the surges that are the problem, but the number of dailies and encounter powers. Surges are simply an attrition game. And my fix is to make extended rests take an extended amount of time (a long lazy weekend) and have to take place somewhere safe (i.e. somewhere the PCs don't set watches).
the Jester
Legend
This is one way to handle the pacing issue, but I favor a different one- simply require more than a night's rest for an extended rest. Maybe a week of downtime, for instance.
In fairness, that's a problem with poorly-designed solos. Solos should ALWAYS have something to do other than just spamming at wills, even if it's just an aura and some sort of minor action power or something.
In fairness, that's a problem with poorly-designed solos. Solos should ALWAYS have something to do other than just spamming at wills, even if it's just an aura and some sort of minor action power or something.
The Human Target
Adventurer
I find that its easiest to just limit when they can take an extended rest.
Usually not before they've had 3 or 4 combats.
Its how 4e should a been in the first place.
Usually not before they've had 3 or 4 combats.
Its how 4e should a been in the first place.
Quickleaf
Legend
You want a bunch of smaller skirmish type encounters (like in older edition dungeon crawls) that play relatively fast and threaten the PCs thru attrition? Is that right?
I think your proposed fix fails because...if the PCs are in a situation where they can take one extended rest, why not take another? and another?
Instead, what I would do is:
(a) Alter my encounter design to up the threat level of "under-level" encounters thru smart monster pairing and terrain pairing, ambushes & hitting PCs while split up or trying to rest, custom-designed minions and hazards that drain surges, etc.
(b) Look at ways of disincentivizing extended rests. If you have my 4e DM Cheat Sheet, I list a bunch of ideas for doing this in there, though many can be summed up as "the monsters adapt."
keterys
First Post
The surges aren't the right target; or at a minimum also target dailies.
I'd suggest using the cure light / critical / etc potions from Mordenkainen's and the occasional surge granting item (ointment, healer's sash / gloves, etc) and giving only one extended rest _per level_. That'd keep people on their toes about attrition and avoid the whole "Fine, we just extended rest after every battle then. Whatever" problem.
I'd suggest using the cure light / critical / etc potions from Mordenkainen's and the occasional surge granting item (ointment, healer's sash / gloves, etc) and giving only one extended rest _per level_. That'd keep people on their toes about attrition and avoid the whole "Fine, we just extended rest after every battle then. Whatever" problem.
It's more about uncertainty. In pre-3e, up until high levels the players don't know when they'll have to fight, and do know it will take a while to heal up, so any damage is worrying - it's a long-term threat. 4e removes that dynamic.
well, the last solo of the campaign (the PCs were level 24, I think?) and the solo was level 27. Not sure they were encounter powers or recharge ones, but the solo had a daily or two, plus another daily that recharged once bloodied, and then had an aura, a nifty minor action power usable every round and the regular at-will power. The problem with the aura was that even at a high level, the players usually had some sort of item or power that allowed them to neutralize it and the guy playing the archer ranger had an uncanny ability to roll really high and would bombard the bad guys from a distance. (His father playing a defender/fighter was the opposite, had an uncanny ability to miss when he only needed a 4 or 5 on the d20...)
But, if all your solo has for her last 500 or so hit points is the at-will standard, at-will minor and hopefully a recharge power every 3rd round or so, it gets boring fast.
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