+2 to cha and no counter balance stat: LA +0

[Old Gumphrey]

Or perhaps the problem is that your group doesn't fully understand the grapple rules?

On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

See most of your arguments hinge on things like flying grapplers being common. Overland Flight could be renamed "melee immunity". I have never once been involved in a game where flying grapplers were used, in 15 years of gaming (although technically only the last 7 count for flying grapplers). That's not to say it's irrelevant, but I'm sure as heck not going to design a character based around the threat of one.

Grell...Giant Toad...so what? You sound like you've been run through RttToEE one too many times with a small character and the DM felt like picking on you.

The most important thing is this:

I never said grappling isn't dangerous to a caster. I said -4 more isn't a problem, since it's already about 5 notches past "sucks". -4 grapple on grapple checks for a spellcaster is like -4 cha for a fighter; it's not really any kind of disadvantage that you don't already have. Gnome wizards have all the same problems of human wizards, but gnomes get +1 AC and +1 on attack rolls. They're harder to get a hold of to grapple in the first place, and they have more HP to tough out the grappling.

The second most important thing is that this thread is about a new base race, not grapple rules.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Or perhaps the problem is that your group doesn't fully understand the grapple rules?



See most of your arguments hinge on things like flying grapplers being common. Overland Flight could be renamed "melee immunity". I have never once been involved in a game where flying grapplers were used, in 15 years of gaming (although technically only the last 7 count for flying grapplers). That's not to say it's irrelevant, but I'm sure as heck not going to design a character based around the threat of one.

Grell...Giant Toad...so what? You sound like you've been run through RttToEE one too many times with a small character and the DM felt like picking on you.

The most important thing is this:

I never said grappling isn't dangerous to a caster. I said -4 more isn't a problem, since it's already about 5 notches past "sucks". -4 grapple on grapple checks for a spellcaster is like -4 cha for a fighter; it's not really any kind of disadvantage that you don't already have. Gnome wizards have all the same problems of human wizards, but gnomes get +1 AC and +1 on attack rolls. They're harder to get a hold of to grapple in the first place, and they have more HP to tough out the grappling.

The second most important thing is that this thread is about a new base race, not grapple rules.

Any flyer can be a flying grappler to a Size Small character--you can't tell me you haven't faced flying creatures, you're just fortunate that your GM has decided to go easy on Small characters by relatively ignoring their weaknesses.

You can't escape a pin with Escape Artist as a Wizard until level 12. You can reduce it to a grapple, but you don't have the right actions to escape (specifically, not enough attacks). By the time you have that many attacks, you'll already have Dimension Door et al.

And as I showed upthread with actual numbers, the normal Wizard at low levels has a reasonable (though not great) chance to prevent / eventually stop or break the grapple. The Small character does not, and the difference is substantial.

But you are correct that this isn't a thread about small size or the grapple rules. It seems pretty clear that you can't be convinced, but if I'm wrong and you'd like to discuss this, why not make a thread in the rules forum?

 

[DreadArchon]

And as I showed upthread with actual numbers, the normal Wizard at low levels has a reasonable (though not great) chance to prevent / eventually stop or break the grapple. The Small character does not, and the difference is substantial.

So pay the 8000 gold for an item that permanently Greases you. +10 to checks to escape grappling.

(Er, maybe. Actually, Grease also gives you +10 to Escape Artist, even if it's Circumstance rather than Competence, so as a DM I would charge 10,000. Still, it's viable at mid to high levels. It's cheaper than the +2 Adamantite weapon you'd be wanting for a melee build, for example.)

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Such as that poll thread you made where it's like a 90% landslide that small casters have a net advantage?

First off, I'm generally the GM, and I challenge my players just fine without having to resort to singling out their specific weaknesses (see second off). Second off, designing encounters to specifically screw over certain players is just metagaming. I, nor anyone I game with, happens to think teams of ogre monk/fighter/barbarians with boots of flying that are out to slay all small casters makes a whole lot of sense. Even if I used things like that, they would generally have more pressing matters in the combat, such as the amazon barbarian charging around leap attacking them to death in one hit. And if I want someone grappled and kidnapped I'll wait until they separate themselves from the group willingly (it always happens).

Also your understanding of the grapple rules are indeed faulty. You don't need a specific number of attacks to escape. You need one standard action.

When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

Nothing in there about needing multiple attacks to escape a grapple. It doesn't even remotely suggest this anywhere in the grapple rules. I guess if you are ruling grappling this way, no wonder it's so dangerous. People aren't even given the option to try escaping!

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Nevermind that last bit, I see what you mean. You can't actually end the grapple until you have multiple attacks. But you can't ever go from "pinned" to "free" using Escape Artist. But being pinned as a caster is brutal; being grappled isn't that big of a deal.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Nevermind that last bit, I see what you mean. You can't actually end the grapple until you have multiple attacks. But you can't ever go from "pinned" to "free" using Escape Artist. But being pinned as a caster is brutal; being grappled isn't that big of a deal.

Good to see you noticed the standard action thing Always doublecheck before calling someone wrong is my cardinal rule, though I admittedly don't always doublecheck before saying something in the first place.

As for being grappled being less of a deal, true, but the enemy will just always grapple you again, and you can never actually get out that way unless you have Quickened spells to pull off after the standard action.

As to the first part of the above post, teams of multiclassed ogres with boots of flying are one thing--but not having flying enemies use Grapple at all is quite another. You said you've seen only one flying grapple, but you must have used more than one dragon in that time. You seem to come out on the powergaming side of arguments from what I've seen, so I'm guessing you probably allow the Orb spells with no SR. Particularly in that case (but even if not), grabbing and snatching the small caster is a very good idea, particularly if it can pin her. Archers usually aren't enough of an issue to stop the dragon from making strafe runs and retreating, but mages with spells are.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Powergaming? Yeah, that's accurate. I powergame the hell out of my bad guys, but I try not to deliberately do things to screw the party individually...if I have a plan like "the dragon is going to hide in the ceiling then snatch the last party member" and that guy happens to be a small caster, then I guess he's going down. But really, by the time you're fighting dragons big enough to carry you off you should be able to afford scrolls of Freedom of Movement thus negating this entire discussion. Dragons aren't exactly random encounters. Yes, they can fly and grapple, but their purpose isn't a "flying grappler". It's a flyer that can also grapple, if that makes any sense. Its main schtick isn't flying over and grappling stuff, it's doing pretty much whatever it wants until someone figures out to hit it with a dex damage spell.