2H Swordmage Warding

[Kzach]

I had thought this was obvious and had already been dealt with through errata but a quick search seems to indicate that it's an ongoing issue.

Specifically I'm talking about players circumventing the rules of Swordmage Warding by wielding a 2H weapon when they attack and then saying, "Free action, let one hand off the weapon," to then get the full +3 benefit.

I'd like to hear from anyone who either has some solid evidence that this has been stop-gapped or just from people who want to weigh in on whether it's circumventing RAW through a loop-hole and whether RAI would indicate whether or not it was intended to thwart such a trick.

 

[sfedi]

I really don't care RAW or RAI, that's obviously wrong and I won't allow it.

Don't need any fancy explanation.

Choose your "mode" at the beginning of the round, 1H or 2H, and that will be your bonus until the start of your next turn.

 

[eamon]

I really don't care RAW or RAI, that's obviously wrong and I won't allow it.

Don't need any fancy explanation.

Choose your "mode" at the beginning of the round, 1H or 2H, and that will be your bonus until the start of your next turn.

I think it's arguably RAW (perplexingly so), though obviously not RAI. Note that the game's a little vague about the action cost of switching handedness.

You could rule it's a free action but only on your turn. Then, doing so is viable (but hardly an issue) with versatile weapons, but doing so with two-handed weapons means no immediate action weapon powers (this hurts, for a swordmage) and no OA's with that weapon.

You could rule the FAQ clarifying this applies only to versatile weapons. No problem, but versatile weapons gain a little bit of damage (I doubt this is an issue). It's possibly still a little weird - I dunno, it's quite fluff dependent (I can imagine a swordmage's forcefield weakens a little while he uses to hands to strike, but it does smell like cheese, even if it's very wimpy cheese ;-) ).

If you rule that it's a free action at all times, there's just no good reason not to run around with a fullblade at all times, basically, so I'd not do that.

Is there a weapon enchantment which permits a weapon to change types? Or is this some memory of 3.5?

 

[NMcCoy]

If you rule that carrying around a 2H weapon in one hand causes you to grant combat advantage (off-balance, can't parry properly, etc.), the problem takes care of itself rather beautifully.

 

[Destil]

This is one of those pesky things where someone tries to abuse the way the game works. For playability rounds are continuous, but in the game world people aren't taking turns by any stretch. Simple enough to rule that when you use a two-handed weapon you get the lower warding bonus until the start of your next turn. You shouldn't have to, it's a silly rules-layering sort of move, but if it comes down to it, remember that you don't attack and then wait on the opponent to swing back. Everything's happening at the same time.

One vs. two handedness is something that's been an issue since 3E (maybe earlier, but 3E had a larger focus on action types), and the rules have never really nailed down. The intention is clear, playing with a group that wants to ague something like this my problem would be more a problem with the players than the rules for me.

 

[boar]

Before we get judgmental about "cheese" and "rules lawyering," let's note that there's a huge distinction between doing this with a versatile weapon and doing it with a fullblade. With a longsword, it's hardly a stretch to say that the character temporarily brings his other hand to the hilt while driving home the blade, then resumes a one-handed stance. Calling "cheese" on this is extreme -- watch how professionals hit a backhand in tennis.

A fullblade, on the other hand, must be wielded in two hands, so it's a lot more of a leap to say that the character holds it in one hand when he's done hitting with it.

Also, although free actions can be used on other characters' turns, you can't announce a free action as an interrupt. Thus, a swordmage with a longsword wouldn't be able to get the bonus on immediate or opportunity attacks, and one with a fullblade wouldn't be able to attack outside his turn at all.

 

[hero4hire]

I wouldnt allow this for 2h weapons, but versatile? Sure. Though I may occasionally exploit this with monster's immeduate actions or readied actions to strike while the Swordmage attacks 2handed.

 

[Klaus]

I had thought this was obvious and had already been dealt with through errata but a quick search seems to indicate that it's an ongoing issue.

Specifically I'm talking about players circumventing the rules of Swordmage Warding by wielding a 2H weapon when they attack and then saying, "Free action, let one hand off the weapon," to then get the full +3 benefit.

I'd like to hear from anyone who either has some solid evidence that this has been stop-gapped or just from people who want to weigh in on whether it's circumventing RAW through a loop-hole and whether RAI would indicate whether or not it was intended to thwart such a trick.

If they hold a two-handed weapon in one hand, they aren't "wielding" it, and thus their Swordmage Warding drops from +1 to +0 (must be wielding a heavy blade or light blade).

Now, this might work with a versatile weapon, though.

 

[Mengu]

If they hold a two-handed weapon in one hand, they aren't "wielding" it, and thus their Swordmage Warding drops from +1 to +0 (must be wielding a heavy blade or light blade).

Unfortunately I don't think this argument works because technically, they are still wielding it, because you can wield an implement one handed, and the two-hander is an implement for the swordmage.

By RAW, I think the one-handing argument works. But at my table if the question came up, I'd just Gibbs-slap the player.

 

[Kralin Thornberry]

But remember, if they pull the "cheese" and say "I'm going 1 handed now" as a free action, they cannot make opportunity attacks or anything thing that requires them to be wielding their said weapon (and there are a lot of immediate interrupts and such).

And I would have to disagree on if they are just holding their 2H weapon and say they are using it as an implement, because they technically aren't wielding it, they are just holding it...difference there.