D&D 5E (2024) 2nd level casters are disappoint

[FrogReaver]

Yeah. Tashas got upgraded. Can now upcast and twin it for cheap.

Yep, but at level 1 it's just not great, mostly because martials do enough damage now to wreck.

5E design assumptions neeed to change around saves scaling or magic resistance upgraded to greater magic resistance .

Probably. More characters have decent hard control spells by level 5 or so. Makes locking enemies down much easier.

Spellcasters generally suck at damage martials got boosted.

This is true. Though Wizards/Druids with Summon Spells can hold their own in single target damage for most of the game. And Druids and Clerics upcasting Moonbeam/Conjure Animals/Conjure Fey/Spirit Guardians make pretty good damagers. Won't fully compete in single target, but the AOE damage is amazing and the single target isn't that bad in comparison.

Meta is control and have martisls beat the opponents up imho.

I'm not sure about this. Control eventually falters if you don't have the damage throughput, unless we are talking 5MWD only.

 

[Vael]

I dunno, that second hit die, nearly doubling hitpoints and 50% more spell slots is alone a significant upgrade from 1st level.

I guess you could make that argument for Bards and Wizards, who don't gain new features like Channel Divinity, Wildshape or Metamagic, but I view the first two levels as the price you pay for a la carte multiclassing that 3rd and 5th edition DnD possesses. (And for some that want a more zero to hero style character progression, though I'd argue that's not as important as balancing against class dipping).

4e, Daggerheart and other systems that don't allow this style of multiclassing allow for more robust and general competence at 1st level and therefore a smoother character progression.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yep, but at level 1 it's just not great, mostly because martials do enough damage now to wreck.


Probably. More characters have decent hard control spells by level 5 or so. Makes locking enemies down much easier.


This is true. Though Wizards/Druids with Summon Spells can hold their own in single target damage for most of the game. And Druids and Clerics upcasting Moonbeam/Conjure Animals/Conjure Fey/Spirit Guardians make pretty good damagers. Won't fully compete in single target, but the AOE damage is amazing and the single target isn't that bad in comparison.


I'm not sure about this. Control eventually falters if you don't have the damage throughput, unless we are talking 5MWD only.

Yeah clerid and druids can do respectable damage and good control.

Wizards better control specific builds higher level white room theory crafting can do more higher levels (CME abuse basically).

Even our newer players have generally stopped casting fireball cs upcast spirit guardians. 14 year old was looking at firestorm lvl 13. Then Conjure celestial was mentioned.

Waltz around with spirit guardians and spam command (halt, approach) works great.

 

[Ashrym]

They can easily grab bless, faerie fire etc as well. And swap it next level.

2 spells per short rest, 2-3 spells 1/day from Druid/Wizard/Cleric and 4-9 extra cantrips. Level 2.

Wizards DO Suck (and all the other casters comparatively).

Warlock wins tier 1 imho not just level 2. Wizards dont "get good" until 6 or 10 (5.0 vs 5.5 or subclass).

No arguments here. Lessons of the First Ones allows for a lot of leeway which gets back to my point that gaining 2 invocations at 2nd level is a solid boost. The default spell list is at those levels is kind of mid.

 

[Ashrym]

Rangers don’t get Entangle in 2024. Otherwise I would have said yes!

Check your list again. I definitely see Entangle on the ranger spell list in my 2024 PHB.

Sleep is extremely small aoe and does nothing on a successful save. Entangle creates difficult terrain in a decent aoe which can serve many purposes.

The difficult terrain we get from Entangle regardless of a save is what makes it useful, but the conditions from a failed save from Sleep are better than the conditions from a failed save with Entangle. Sleep having a 5'R means catching 2 targets in the AoE has a solid chance for success even with a 13 DC save against it as long as the DM rolls separately for each target.

The other thing I like about Entangle is that affected targets are required to spend an action to free themselves. I have no doubt that it's one of the best spells for the level. I just also use Sleep as a standard pick at those levels.

Sleep also has repeated saves, entangle requires an action to break free after the initial save.

The first save is against incapacitated, which is better than restrained. The second save is against unconscious, which is better than either. Entangle requires an action to try to break free, but breaking free is not a required action. Affected targets can still attack at penalty if they have the range to their opponents to do so.

The real benefit for Entangle is the 20' square of difficult terrain the spell manifests regardless.

Sleep is much lower value than entangle. IMO.

I disagree. I think Entangle is more reliable, however, because of the difficult terrain while Sleep carries better status effects so I find it a bit more of a gamble on better rewards for the slot.

Bless isn’t a good level 1 spell at level 2. It’s okay, not good. You’re much better off using command, inflict wounds, guiding bolt, cure wounds or healing word in the early levels.

I'm not a fan of damage or healing spells as the most effective use of a spell slot. I believe status effects and CC are better choices.
This get back to the 13 DC than anyone with a +2 bonus has a 50/50 chance of whiffing the action and the spell slot. Approximately one out of three targets are going to save against that single target spell with no bonuses at all at that level.

I think most level 1 save spells just aren’t that good at level 1. They can make great spells to use with low level slots later on, but by that time casters are being carried by their aoe control options and just using the low level slots when controlling a single specific target is really all that is needed.

Agreed, but I would add that I don't think the 1st level spell list is a good discussion point on spell casters at those levels. Most of the spells aren't that good, the DC's on them are still fairly low, and the number of spell slots available is restrictive that early. A person should be looking at other class features.

Cantrips and rituals come into play far more often than spell slots at those levels, IME. As you mentioned earlier, access to armor and shields is a definite plus. Wild Shape or Eldritch Invocations are very useful features.

Personally, I think warlocks and druids are the best caster classes in the first tier, and I think the OP was off pointing at wizards because of the wizard cantrip list and ritual adept abilities.