2nd world war

[Bloodstone Press]

I have used HoE in my WWII/Supers game that I have a story hour for in my sig.

Yeah I know. I've been reading it occasionally.

Also: Godlike rules are good, but vehicles are given the shaft. Hence my research - because whats a WW2 game without a Panzer IV?

Do you have Modern Eras (1939-1945)? I personally feel that the vehicle stats in it are quite good. I spent a lot of time on them, and used a fairly sophisticated system to determine them. I started by finding real world stats for the vehicles presented in the d20 Modern book. I converted these real world stats into d20 Modern terms that matched their stats as presented in the d20 Modern rules. By doing this I developed a number of equations that I then applied to all WWII era vehicles based on their stats. Hardness was determined by comparative mm of armor thickness, adjusted somewhat arbitrarily for extenuating circumstances, such as casting Vs rivets. Initiative modifiers were largely determined by comparing the Horse Power to Tonnage ratio, according to a set scale of advancement.

As an aside, when I was deconstructing the vehicles and weapons in d20 Modern, I got the feeling that the designers didn't research their vehicles and weapons nearly as well as I did. Many of the stats in d20 Modern seem arbitrary and inaccurate. For example, the range of a 45 Caliber handgun, and the range for a 50 caliber machine gun are both completely wrong. Because of these errors, I had to re-write the stats for them, so they would fit with all the other WWII weapons I was developing.

Some Vehicles that are going to be in it:

- Koningstiger
- Stuart ( US M3 Light Tank )

They are both in this:Modern Eras (1939-1945). So is the Panzer II, III, IV, Panther, Panther II, Tiger, Maus, Cromwell, Crusader, Fire Fly, Black Prince, Jackson, Pershing, T-28, Chi-he, Chi-ha, Type 94, Ha-go, T-34, T35, JS I, II, III and several other tanks, not to mention dozens of cars, planes, submarines, jets, spy gear, guns, ammo, grenades, and cannons.

OK, I'll stop pimping my book now

I'd just hate to see people spend a lot of time doing the same research I spent months doing.

 

[Arrgh! Mark!]

I'll have a look for yonder book, but I doubt my local gaming store would have one.

It's a pity.


*blinks*

Ahh, the mous. What a very masculine tank to use.

 

[Aaron2]

I personally feel that the vehicle stats in it are quite good. I spent a lot of time on them, and used a fairly sophisticated system to determine them. I started by finding real world stats for the vehicles presented in the d20 Modern book.

Its not your fault, but you can't really do WW2 tanks justice with just one armor value (hardness). For example, the Panther has huge armor up front but is less protected on its sides and rear than a Sherman.

As an aside, when I was deconstructing the vehicles and weapons in d20 Modern, I got the feeling that the designers didn't research their vehicles and weapons nearly as well as I did. Many of the stats in d20 Modern seem arbitrary and inaccurate. For example, the range of a 45 Caliber handgun, and the range for a 50 caliber machine gun are both completely wrong. Because of these errors, I had to re-write the stats for them, so they would fit with all the other WWII weapons I was developing.

I've got some problems with your gun stats, especially where two weapons firing the same ammo do different damages. For example, why does the MP38 do 2d10 when the Sten, which also first the 9mm parabellum, only does 2d6 (along with all 9mm pistols)? Why does the M1 Garand do 2d10 when the Springfield does 2d8 and has a higher muzzle velcocity? Why does the MP44 out damage the Kar98 when it fires a special reduced charge round? Also, in d20M, all weapons need to do two dice of damage; you've got some pistols doing 1d10 or 1d12. I, personally, hate this rule but its needed because of the way d20M does Burst Fire.


Aaron

 

[ledded]

Tyranie 101, every known tyran uses those concepts.

Again Tyranie 101, plus some spartiate/military oriented culture concept nothing new here. Only very recently in the world history nation have become so open to differences. I personnaly wouldn't have like to be a communist, gay, or black a 50 years ago in the states.

...

Oh, I agree, but these same people in the states were not rounded up and systematically exterminated according to a logical, cost-effective plan.

Did a lot of white people helped the black in the US? they were aware of the KKK and they certainly didn't think that those white hooded guys were lightining the cross to provide them with free heat and light. It took the american more than 200 years to realise how stupid it was and you expect the german society to do it in 20 years.

In short, the answer to your question is yes, yes they did. Even as far back as prior to the American Civil War, there have been many instances of people who did recognize that slavery was wrong, and took steps to do what they could. The Civil War itself, at least in part, was fought over issues revolving around slavery. More apt maybe would be a comparison to the near-extinction, dislocation, and murder of the native american prior to and succeeding that, and the American people's apparent apathy towards their plight.

But I personally know white people who marched with the civil rights movement, who did stand up and say "hey, this is *wrong*" and suffered for it. As a result, they did help to change things.

Up until this generation racism has been a fundamental problem in most 'civilized' societies, some more than others, and was exhibited in public policy in one way or another. One of the few silver linings to be found in Nazi Germany is that it's now pretty obvious how badly that works out for you.

Many Iraquis didn't liked Saddam, but they were living in fear (again Tyranie 101) so they never complained or try to rebel. Same thing with most German.

Not *quite* true, there was resistance and rebellion here and there, but usually dealt with quite harshly and quickly.

I beleive it is no worse than any other genocide, it was just done the German way, based on productivity and efficiency, I am pretty sure that any nation nowadays wanting to perform a serious genocide would study their model. Look at any genocide and you will notice one thing in common the desire to elimate the hated one as quickly as possible, it just happened that an industrialised and Engineer driven country came up with that horrible idea, so they just figured out what was the most effective way for them giving their mean to acheive their goal.

Um, that statement bothers me on so many levels I dont think that I'll comment.

The reason why Saddam Hussein didn't kill all the Kurds is because of political issue, which the germans didn't have at the time. Don't tell me that the British, US, French and other allied were completly unaware of what was happening there, but they still waited to be attacked to enter the War. The US were even selling steel to the germans and were putting their head in the sand for quite some time. If the German would have done their little business in their country I doubt the others would have reacted. One good thing that came out of this is that Western Country learned from that and don't allow such attrocities anymore (especially if their interest is at risk )

<snip>

It is regrettable that the world did not do more to assist the Kurds, but that is a completely different thing IMO. Also, while the US was pursuing isolationist policies while the Allies were actively fighting Germany, they were not totally out of the War effort prior to Pearl. Lend-lease program in the billions (and that's 1940's billions) of dollars, 'unofficial' organizations fighting under the banner of allied countries, casualties in mercantile shipping, etc. I also disagree with the notion that if the Germans had 'done their business' solely in Germany no one would have reacted. Maybe if they were not persuing aggressive empire-building at the time it would have been more like the issues in Rwanda you mention below though.

All this to say that two equally horrible events view from different angle/cultures may have a completly different effect. Take 9/11 and the 94 genocide in Rwanda that killed 2.4 millions people in 3 months (compare that with 6 million in almost 10 years), most american will be much more troubled by 9/11, it's all a matter of what the media want's us to beleive.

Like another poster said, it's the proximity of the event, but I personally was horrified by the genocide in Rwanda and the worlds apparent inability to do anything about it.

Also, again, you have to look past a few facts to see the bigger picture. Sure, around 6 million Jews were killed, but like another poster said the mass murders were done more over something like 2-3 years, and that number is only the Jews. Quite a few of other groups were rounded up and killed (a comparable number of slavs and other various eastern europeans were also killed), not including somewhere around 20 million total Russians (military and civilian). So your final number is much, much higher than what you think.

Anyway, while you do make some good points Darkmaster, I still feel that some of the arguments you post are terribly flawed not only in interpretation of events, but in the underlying facts.

Not all highly trained combat soldiers are irrevocable psychotics either. I have a good college buddy who I saw a while back at a reuinion party. He had just gotten back from Afghanistan, from an Army Special Forces unit that had just weeks before put the 'Mozambique Drill' into effect and talked candidly about it. A drunken idiot later that night tried to start an altercation with him and he calmly talked it down and handled it like a normal, adult human without once flying into a homocidal blood rage. He told us later "yeah, I didn't want to get in a fight or anything, somebody could get hurt or in trouble". Of course I had to joke with him "Yeah, I hate it when people want me to take a look at their computer at a party, talking shop when I'm trying to relax..." . Point is, some of these highly trained 'brainwashed' individuals can, and do integrate back with society, albeit often with varying degrees of difficulty. Get my friend, and a few other folks on this board, to describe Post Traumatic Stress to you.

Sorry for the continued hijack, I'll shut up about it now and try to post something at least vaguely on topic

 

[ledded]

Yeah I know. I've been reading it occasionally.

Cool, I hope you've enjoyed it. It's not exactly straight WWII, but a fun game nonetheless.

Do you have Modern Eras (1939-1945)? I personally feel that the vehicle stats in it are quite good. I spent a lot of time on them, and used a fairly sophisticated system to determine them. I started by finding real world stats for the vehicles presented in the d20 Modern book. I converted these real world stats into d20 Modern terms that matched their stats as presented in the d20 Modern rules. By doing this I developed a number of equations that I then applied to all WWII era vehicles based on their stats. Hardness was determined by comparative mm of armor thickness, adjusted somewhat arbitrarily for extenuating circumstances, such as casting Vs rivets. Initiative modifiers were largely determined by comparing the Horse Power to Tonnage ratio, according to a set scale of advancement.

As an aside, when I was deconstructing the vehicles and weapons in d20 Modern, I got the feeling that the designers didn't research their vehicles and weapons nearly as well as I did. Many of the stats in d20 Modern seem arbitrary and inaccurate. For example, the range of a 45 Caliber handgun, and the range for a 50 caliber machine gun are both completely wrong. Because of these errors, I had to re-write the stats for them, so they would fit with all the other WWII weapons I was developing.

For the most part, I think you did a *very* good job with it. I haven't actually seen any other WW2 source that had at least put in the research for vehicles like you did.

I did house rule a few things here and there, like making a quick-n-dirty mechanic for handling differing armor thickness/angles of attack for tanks, different ways to overcome armor, and also providing a mechanism for scoring a 'crit' on a vehicle. Along with a huge does of HoE, it has worked out very well so far, and the players have liked the feel of it.

And I'll say this... when I first read HoE and how it departed somewhat from d20 Modern's view of hardness/hp of vehicles, I went and researched a few of the tanks that I was most interested in. When I did what I thought were fairly decent representations of the physics involved, using a bunch of different calculations and whatnot, I compared them to what was in HoE and got very similar answers. Doh. Talk about trying to reinvent the wheel when you already own one.

Though, if you are going to do a refresher of the product sometime, some more detail on the various and sundry halftracks appearing during the era would be nice (hint hint)

Its not your fault, but you can't really do WW2 tanks justice with just one armor value (hardness). For example, the Panther has huge armor up front but is less protected on its sides and rear than a Sherman.

Like I stated above, I found using a simple system for the GM to determine where a particular attack strikes a tank, you can work that out easily. For my players, they immediately started attempting to do things like ambushing from the rear, or finding ways to get under the shurtzen, etc to take out tanks after the first few times they took a Panzer IV or Tiger head on and merely 'plinked' it.

I also wouldnt get *too* worked up on staying exactly true to the intention of d20 Modern when doing something WW2; the methodology and intention of the designers, IMO, does not always lend itself well to trying to run 'realistic' WW2 campaign. It's just too RL physics intensive. It can be done however. Many of our encounters, especially those involving armor, have gone eerily similar to how you would have expected them to go during the period, and reflected fairly well in the mountain of anecdotes I've accumulated for WW2.

 

[ragboy]

For the most part, I think you did a *very* good job with it. I haven't actually seen any other WW2 source that had at least put in the research for vehicles like you did.

Well heck. I looked at this about a year ago, and wasn't sure if it was any good (particularly with vehicles). So, now I'm going to have to scrape together my measly RPG allowance and buy it...

 

[jerichothebard]

My question really is:
--Would be this adventure so weird and enormous that my players could have fun with this absurdity?

possibly - although I suspect that it will quickly degenerate into them setting up their patron for a fall. After all, if the dude needs HITLER'S skull for a ritual, he can't possibly be up to anything good...

--Or is this so bad taste and politically so incorect, etc. (plus one of the players is of Jewish origin) that I should better forget about this idea?

Well, there is that. I don't think it's in bad taste, nessecerily, but like I said, be prepared for them to turn immediately against their patron.



Of course, all of this is predicated on the argument that Hitler was chaotic... which may or may not be true, depending on your viewpoint. But I hardly think Eric's Grandma will appreciate THAT argument!

jtb